The Shadow Alchemy of Being Monstrous With Leila Matthews | Penetrate Radio, Episode 14
In Episode 14 of Penetrate Radio, Lucy Baldwin and Leila Matthews explore monsters, fear, self-judgment, social accusation, narcissism, codependency, boundaries, self-interest, and what becomes possible when we stop rejecting the monstrous parts of ourselves and other people.
This conversation is not about excusing harm. It is not about pretending cruelty, manipulation, abuse, or domination are fine. It is about understanding that the things we most fear being called often hold power over us because we have refused to examine them. When we cannot tolerate the possibility of being seen as selfish, manipulative, bitchy, narcissistic, controlling, or monstrous, those labels can control our behavior from the shadows.
The episode’s deeper invitation is simple and radical: stop letting fear of the monster run your life. Look at the monster. Understand what it wants. Find the neutral or even sacred quality underneath the demonized label. Then reclaim the energy that fear has been holding hostage.
Watch or listen to Episode 14 of Penetrate Radio here:
Key Takeaways
In this episode, Lucy and Leila explore:
why rejecting monsters does not make them disappear
the idea that demons and devils are fallen angels
how fear gives monsters their power
why monstrous qualities often begin with good intentions
the value of making a list of the archetypes you are most disgusted by
how demonized labels can cut us off from useful qualities
why “bitch” may hide access to outrage and self-expression
why “manipulator” may hide access to influence
how fear of being called selfish can block healthy self-interest
why narcissism has become a major cultural monster
the relationship between narcissistic and codependent patterns
how over-giving can contain unconscious taking
why trying to control how others see you can become its own monster
how self-trust can make accusation less powerful
Fear Gives Monsters Their Power
Leila begins the conversation with a powerful metaphor: all demons and devils are fallen angels.
In other words, the monster is not born from nothing. It is often a once-beneficent quality that has become warped by fear, imbalance, misunderstanding, repression, or exile. Something that might have been protective, strong, influential, passionate, outraged, or self-advocating becomes distorted because it has been cut off from conscious relationship.
This is why fear matters so much. Fear begets fear. The more we refuse to look at a monster, the more charge it gains. The more forbidden an inner quality becomes, the more power the label has over us.
Shadow Alchemy does not begin by destroying the monster. It begins by asking what the monster was trying to become before fear mutated it.
Monsters Often Begin With Good Intentions
Lucy names one of the central axioms of this episode: if you go deeply enough into the monster, you will find a seed of love or good intention.
That does not mean every action is harmless. It does not mean every behavior should be excused. It means that, especially inside the people we know and inside ourselves, monstrous patterns often began as attempts to protect, help, survive, belong, succeed, be loved, avoid shame, maintain safety, or get needs met.
A protective impulse can become control. A desire to be heard can become domination. A need for connection can become manipulation. A longing to be safe can become cruelty. A healthy self-interest can become self-absorption.
The seed is not the same as the overgrown thornbush. But if we never look for the seed, we cannot transform the pattern. We can only reject it.
The Monsters We Actually Fear
Classic monsters like vampires, zombies, ogres, swamp monsters, and angry mobs are useful archetypes, but Lucy and Leila quickly move toward the more intimate monsters: the ones we fear becoming in daily life.
The bad mother.
The evil stepmother.
The bitch.
The manipulator.
The narcissist.
The control freak.
The selfish one.
The authoritarian.
These are often much scarier than fictional monsters because they threaten our identity and our belonging. We may be able to enjoy a vampire movie, but being accused of being selfish or narcissistic can feel unbearable if that label carries enough charge.
The real shadow work begins with the monsters that make your body tighten.
Make a List of the Monsters You Fear
Lucy offers a simple and powerful exercise: make a list of the archetypes or qualities that disgust you most.
Do not make a generic list. Make your list. Which labels feel especially charged? Which kinds of people do you judge most harshly? Which accusations would devastate you? Which qualities feel like the worst thing you could be?
Maybe the list includes:
selfish
manipulative
controlling
needy
bitchy
narcissistic
lazy
weak
greedy
aggressive
attention-seeking
cold
Then take each word and ask: how have I been this? Where does this live in me? How have I done this subtly, indirectly, or in socially acceptable ways?
The point is not self-attack. The point is freedom. When you can admit the monster exists in you somewhere, the label loses some of its power to control you.
Find the Neutral Quality Under the Demonized Label
Leila adds another layer to the exercise: write down the neutral or useful quality hidden inside the monster.
For example, if the monster is “bitch,” what is the neutral quality? Leila suggests outrage. A bitch is someone who is upset and showing it. She is barking. She is expressing displeasure. She is not staying sweet and silent.
If you are terrified of being called a bitch, you may lose access to outrage. You may lose access to the part of you that can speak up, protest, bark, object, or refuse.
If the monster is “manipulator,” the neutral quality may be influence. If you cannot tolerate the accusation of manipulation, you may cut yourself off from your ability to persuade, invite, sell, lead, enchant, seduce, communicate, or move people.
This is where reclaiming the monster becomes practical. The demonized word often guards a power you need.
The Fear of the Label Controls You
A label becomes controlling when you are terrified of having it applied to you.
If someone can shut you up by calling you selfish, then the fear of selfishness owns your voice. If someone can stop your outrage by calling you a bitch, then the fear of bitchiness owns your anger. If someone can prevent you from leading by calling you manipulative, then the fear of manipulation owns your influence.
This is not a call to become reckless or cruel. It is a call to stop letting other people’s possible judgments hold your power hostage.
You do not need to become the monster in its distorted form. But you do need access to the neutral power underneath the label.
Outrage.
Influence.
Self-interest.
Boundary.
Desire.
Refusal.
Leadership.
Visibility.
When you reclaim the quality, the monster becomes less monstrous.
Being Willing to Be Seen That Way
Lucy describes the liberating practice of being willing to say, “Okay, I’m manipulative. Okay, I’m a bitch.”
The point is not to cement those identities or perform them. The point is to release the panic. If you can tolerate the label, it cannot be used as effectively against you. It no longer has the same power to make you collapse, over-explain, submit, or abandon yourself.
This is a subtle but profound form of shadow work. You become willing to be seen in the archetype, even if the other person’s take is incomplete or unfair.
That willingness does not mean agreeing with every accusation. It means you are no longer ruled by the desperate need to maintain a pristine reputation.
Monsters in Others Become Less Terrifying Too
When you reconcile with the monsters inside yourself, you become less reactive to the monsters in others.
If you know your own capacity for influence, you may be less panicked by someone else’s influence. If you have reclaimed outrage, you may be less destabilized by someone else’s anger. If you can hold your own boundaries, you may not need to pathologize everyone who wants something from you.
This does not mean you lose discernment. In fact, the opposite is true.
When you are less triggered by the label, you have more capacity to notice what is actually happening. You can respond instead of react. You can tell the difference between ordinary influence and coercion, healthy self-advocacy and exploitation, real danger and your own shadow charge.
Fear clouds perception. Shadow integration clarifies it.
Sensationalizing Monsters Can Be Fun
Leila also makes an important allowance: you are allowed to be sensationalized by monsters.
There is pleasure in it. Human beings like drama, horror, gossip, outrage, fear, villainy, and spectacle. We like to gather around the monster and say, “Can you believe this?” That sensation is not wrong.
The invitation is to participate consciously.
If you are going to enjoy the charge of the monster, enjoy it from an empowered place. Notice your own participation in amping it up. Let yourself have the sensation without collapsing into victimhood or pretending that the monster has total power over you.
This is very Existential Kink. The goal is not to become sanitized and above it all. The goal is to know when you are enjoying the drama, so the drama does not unconsciously run you.
Narcissism as the Current Big Bad Monster
Lucy then turns to one of the current cultural monsters: narcissism.
She is careful to clarify that she is not speaking as a psychologist and that real narcissistic abuse, financial abuse, emotional abuse, and physical abuse can be severe and frightening. Leila also emphasizes this sensitivity. Some people truly do get involved with people whose narcissistic patterns are damaging and dangerous.
At the same time, Lucy and Leila explore how the word “narcissist” is now used culturally as a monster label. It gets thrown around casually. It is often used to describe people who may simply be self-advocating, boundaried, ambitious, visible, or unwilling to be controlled.
That overuse matters because when a monster label becomes too charged, it can distort perception. We stop seeing the person in front of us and start seeing the monster under the bed.
Narcissism and Codependency as a Pair
Leila offers a nuanced reflection: narcissistic and codependent patterns often exist together like a proton and electron.
The narcissistic side may look more obviously frightening because it can involve domination, entitlement, exploitation, and the belief that other people exist to fulfill the self. But the codependent side can be frightening too, especially when it hides behind virtue.
The self-proclaimed over-giver may require takers in order to maintain the identity of being the generous one. If you are always giving too much, then someone else must be receiving too much. If you take excessively from yourself in order to give, you may later need to take from others in order to sustain the pattern.
This is not about blaming people who have been harmed. It is about noticing that relational patterns are often co-created through complementary shadow roles.
The Shadow of Over-Giving
Lucy points out that over-giving often contains unconscious taking.
If you give more than you truly have, you may be taking from your own body, time, future, rest, finances, family, resentment capacity, or hidden expectations. Eventually, you may also begin taking from others through guilt, obligation, emotional pressure, or the unspoken demand that they validate your goodness.
This is why over-giving is not automatically pure.
It may be kind. It may be loving. It may also be a form of control, identity maintenance, avoidance, or virtue signaling. The point is not to condemn generosity. The point is to make it honest.
True giving is cleaner when it comes from capacity and consent. When giving is secretly fueled by the need to be seen as good, the shadow will eventually appear.
Healthy Self-Interest Is Not Evil
Lucy and Leila both return to the importance of healthy self-interest.
Many people are afraid to put themselves first because they associate self-interest with selfishness or narcissism. But a mature self-interest understands that caring for relationships, other people, community, and the world is also good for the self.
There does not need to be a false split between self-care and care for others. Even empathy has self-interest in it. If seeing someone else in pain hurts you, then helping them may be for them and for you. That does not make it bad. It makes it honest.
We are all centered in our own experience. We all have motives. We all want to feel, be seen, belong, matter, and have agency. Pretending otherwise does not make us morally superior. It usually makes us less conscious.
Good Boundaries Are Not Narcissism
One of the most practical concerns in this episode is that people sometimes mistake good boundaries for narcissism.
Someone says no, and another person calls them selfish. Someone refuses to be influenced, and the other person calls them self-absorbed. Someone organizes around their own vision and asks others to pay attention, participate, buy, enroll, or support, and they risk being called self-aggrandizing.
This is especially relevant for anyone who wants to lead, teach, create, sell, publish, post, speak, perform, or build something. To put a vision into the world, you have to take up space. You have to believe something you are doing matters enough to ask for attention.
If you are terrified of being seen as narcissistic, you may never let yourself become visible enough to serve.
Trying to Control Your Reputation Can Become Monstrous
Lucy brings the conversation back to reputation.
The fear of being seen as a monster is often rooted in a self-interested desire to be seen a certain way. That desire is not wrong. It is human. Of course we care what people think of us. Reputation affects belonging, safety, opportunity, intimacy, and work.
But when we grip too tightly, we start trying to control other people’s perceptions. And trying to control what other people think of us is impossible. It can also become manipulative, dishonest, or monstrous in its own right.
People will think what they think. They will hear what they hear. They will project what they project.
The deeper freedom is to become more secure in what you know about yourself. If you have investigated your own intentions and found again and again that there is love, care, self-interest, complexity, and humanity inside you, then accusations have less power.
Self-Trust Makes Accusation Less Powerful
This may be the central fruit of the episode: self-trust.
If you know yourself, you do not need to panic every time someone sees you badly. You can listen for truth, repair what needs repair, and still not hand over your entire self-concept to another person’s accusation.
Maybe they are seeing something real. Maybe they are seeing a distorted fragment. Maybe they are projecting. Maybe they are naming something clumsily. Maybe they are wrong.
Self-trust lets you stay present enough to discern.
Without self-trust, every accusation becomes a crisis. With self-trust, accusation becomes information. Sometimes useful, sometimes not.
You Cannot Reject the Monster Into Safety
Lucy’s main takeaway is clear: you cannot reject the monster and think that will make you safe from it.
In fact, rejection is often what makes the monster more monstrous. When a quality is pushed into exile, it tends to become distorted, charged, reactive, and unconscious. It may appear in sideways ways because it has no conscious channel.
Shadow Alchemy does not ask you to love cruelty as cruelty. It asks whether you can look beneath the monster, remove some fear, understand the motivation, and reclaim the skill or energy that has been demonized.
The monster may never become a greeting-card angel. But it can become less terrifying, less controlling, and more available for transformation.
The Real Gift of Owning Your Monsters
The real gift of this episode is a more peaceful relationship with being human.
You do not have to be pristine. You do not have to maintain a perfect reputation. You do not have to be immune to selfishness, manipulation, outrage, influence, codependency, self-interest, or the desire to be seen well.
You are allowed to be a creature with complexity.
When you can admit that, the monster loses some of its power. You can notice the line between influence and coercion, self-interest and exploitation, outrage and cruelty, generosity and over-giving, boundary and coldness.
You become less afraid of yourself.
And when you are less afraid of yourself, you become less controlled by other people’s fear.
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Lucy Baldwin (00:01.708)
Hello, welcome to another episode of Penetrate Radio. I am Lucy Baldwin and I'm here today with Leila Matthews. So, yeah, we are going to do, we're going to talk today about owning your monsters and just, yeah.
Laila Matthews (00:08.728)
Hey.
Laila Matthews (00:20.87)
loving monsters. You know, just being cool with monsters in yourself and others.
Lucy Baldwin (00:30.74)
Yeah, because not rejecting monsters, pushing away, hiding from pretending they don't exist, pretending they're not possible within us, does not actually make them go away despite popular belief. I don't even think it's that that's what people believe. I think it's our unquestioned tendency to try to avoid it.
Laila Matthews (00:56.3)
Well, it's because fear begets fear. And all monsters, all monsters power comes from fear. yeah, so yeah, fear begets fear. I was just thinking about how I feel like the best overarching metaphor for what we're talking about here. I mean, maybe we don't even get to the end of this. But just generally speaking, the best metaphor I can
come up with for this is that all demons, all devils, are fallen angels. They're misunderstood or, you know, like I said, fear begets fear. They are angels who have become either afraid of themselves or afraid of something to a degree where their angelic quality of peace and beneficence
is mutated into like putrid hate and like radiating fear and disgust and monstrousness and imbalance, right? And so, and so the only way to restore this is to sort of remove the charge, remove the fear to come to understand the motivation, maybe the like heroes, the anti-hero's journey of how the monster came to be the way that it is, or, you know, what
positive purpose, the monstrous qualities are attempting to fulfill and reconcile that, you know, monster, either within or without, into at least a, you know, neutral set of skills.
Lucy Baldwin (02:37.514)
Yeah. Yeah, because I think that with, with especially the people that you're interacting with in your day to day life, the people that you personally know, you yourself, it's always starts with good intentions. You know, we have these monsters within us, but they are born from good intentions and they can develop into, you know, toxic is really popular word, but they can develop, they can sour and
Laila Matthews (02:37.806)
You
Lucy Baldwin (03:05.762)
We can take certain things too far, take good intentions too far, be not strategic. And that's how monsters are born. there's not an evil seed underneath them. There's actually, you go down into them, there's a seed of love and good intentions. it's like, choosing that.
you know, kind of owning that as an axiom, you know, we can't prove it, but it is true. And if you investigated enough, like Leila and I have, you will find that that is 100 % the truth. So, just kind of unpacking that. But you can never find that seed if you're just in full rejection.
Laila Matthews (03:58.703)
Totally, yes. And when Lucy and I have taught on the subject of embracing monsters in the past, we have trotted out classic monsters like vampires, like ogres, like swamp monsters, like zombies, like angry mobs, yeah, lynch mobs. And there we begin verging into the archetype of the human.
Lucy Baldwin (04:17.012)
Angry Mob.
Laila Matthews (04:27.872)
And so I feel like some of the most sensational monsters that we have a difficult time with, the sci-fi horror monsters are scary, but the really scary monsters are the ones that we ourselves become or we see in other people. I can think about like bad mom or evil stepmom or these things that we are so afraid to be.
Those are the real monsters that we are called to embrace in others and in ourselves, or at least like remove the charge, you know?
Lucy Baldwin (05:10.303)
Yeah, yeah, like authoritarian or like
Laila Matthews (05:15.276)
Well, think so part of the like part of what I want people to have just generally, I guess, in life is I really want people to have a greater experience of peace internally. And I know from conversations with lots of human beings, both professionally and personally, that human beings are on the whole very preoccupied.
with the negative judgments that other people may or may not have about them. And so, you know, more than like trying to solve the problem of monstrousness in the world, although I do want to get to that maybe later, because I think there is hope for that to some degree. I really want people to experience more peace.
at the notion of being perceived in a ill, yucky, monstrous way. Because...
99 % of the time you are not actually that. That's a bad take. It's a, you know, yeah, it's a bad take. And you don't need to care if you are seen that way. But when there is so much fear invested in the archetype that is being thrown about, it's very difficult to not care.
So Lucy, you wanna share any ways of, should we start sharing some ways of reconciling with these monsters? Some exercises that we've helped people with in the past as examples?
Lucy Baldwin (07:13.067)
Well, I I think, you know, I think one of the most powerful things, I think I just shared this in my last podcast, my other podcast, the seven, but it's still the most power. I still think it's the best exercise is to essentially make a list of the archetypes, you know, that you're most disgusted by. Like, yeah, like, you know, control freak, manipulator.
selfish, whatever they are, whatever those sort of like, you could think of them as ways of being, just whatever qualities that you are most just like, that is what is bad. Because we all have certain ideas of like, what is the most bad and they're kind of unique to us. And then taking each one of those and doing it like...
almost a form of inquiry where you're just like, okay, how have I had this? How have I done this? What's one way that I have had this? Because you're, you can see how it's, first of all, there's so much gray area. What does it mean to be a manipulator? Where is the line between like being a salesy and playful and trying to like bring somebody influential? That's yes. And manipulate it.
Laila Matthews (08:36.032)
influential. Yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (08:40.799)
you manipulative. And so just kind of playing with considering that. Yeah, it's all about how you look at it. It's all about sort of how you perceive it and what you're looking for. And we we contain the full spectrum of of everything, you know, especially depending on the angle that you take.
Laila Matthews (09:06.861)
100%. You know, what you just said, like, I feel like once the list of archetypes is made, I think it's important to write next to the list a sort of like neutral, neutral quality of that archetype. So I'm thinking of like maybe the like archetype, the taboo monsters archetype is like bitch.
What does a bitch do? What does a bitch do? And the thing that just came to my mind is like a bitch is like outraged, right? Like when I think about what it means to be a bitchy woman, it's like you're upset and you're showing it, you know? I just got a dog and she's a girl and she barks and I'm like, unpleasant. And I'm like, okay, that's what's going on when people don't like a bitch because she's barking.
Lucy Baldwin (09:51.201)
aggressive.
Laila Matthews (10:00.907)
So outrage, she's allowed to, a bitch is outraged and that's what's upsetting about her, right? Okay. But, so when people can call you a bitch and it shuts you up, then you have lost access to outrage. You then, you then censor yourself and you can't have outrage. And what's the archetype you were just, we were just talking about? Manipulator. So if you are so afraid of the archetype of manipulator and you won't,
absolutely will not be called a manipulator, then you lose access to the power of being influential. Right? And so I think it can be helpful to like see what it is that we're missing out on by having such an outsized reaction. And I think it helps us find the middle ground that you're talking about where we see that like
These are demonized names for what actually exists on a spectrum where there is a middle ground of reason, of reason to have this quality. Do you know what I'm saying?
Lucy Baldwin (11:10.27)
Yeah, and so often it's our fear of the label, our fear of like, ooh, I can't be seen as that, even to myself, that shuts us off from our full capacity and full spectrum of expression. And, you know, I know for me, it's like really liberating to just be like, okay, I'm manipulative. Okay, I'm a bitch. And just kind of not to become a bitch, but just to kind of like,
Be willing to be seen that way. Be willing to be labeled as that monster in order to release that charge, release the fear. So it can't be held over your head. So it can't control you.
Laila Matthews (11:54.123)
Right, precisely, precisely. And so that you are not also controlled by that word or that judgment on others. Right? You are not like over sensitive into like, the manipulation,
you know, like you're you're not freaking out because you're like, actually, that's a reasonable and normal amount of influence. And also because I am allowed to be a bitch and put up a fight, I can say no and have boundaries. So I'm not afraid of the influence of others because I'm not inhibited in my own ability to have a boundary. Do you know what I mean? So once we're cool with the monsters and ourselves and others, we are free to just simply relate in a more peaceful
straightforward fashion, which is I think part of what I was, know, the like world changing, you know, monster eliminating peace, world peace potential of just getting rid like
Laila Matthews (13:02.465)
getting rid of the unnecessary fear. Because when we are like less triggered unnecessarily, we have more availability and capacity to notice what is actually really not okay and to respond instead of simply and to respond instead of simply reacting.
Lucy Baldwin (13:23.522)
Yeah, and also, and also, when we see these things in others, people that we love, people that we care about, we're able to see the seed of love underneath. I realize how corny that sounds. But we're able to see like, you're just trying to, you know, persuade me to do this thing with you because you love me, or you're just, you know, you need something and that's okay. And I can't, maybe you can, maybe you can't give it to them, but...
It's, we don't take so much offense. We don't take so much, we don't have to put negativity onto them. We don't have to, cause with these monsters, there's always this sort of undertone of bad intentions. This assumption that we apply of bad intentions when we frame it in terms of the monster. know, manipulator implies bad intentions. Whereas influential implies.
good intentions. And so if we can receive people as trying to influence us, we will have a better experience. Our relationships will be better because we won't be like, you're trying to manipulate me. How dare you? And you know what I mean? We could just avoid all the drama there and just be like, that's so nice. No, thank you.
Laila Matthews (14:38.326)
Correct. And additionally, we don't have to be taken... I feel like we also then disempower people who would be manipulating us because people who are capable of manipulation can't be resisted. And so we like create the... I mean, we play into, I guess create is too strong, but we are...
We are part of creating a narrative where we are somewhat powerless to the manipulation. And if we can stand in centered, accurate perception, even of the worst, someone else's best intention that is not the best for us, right? I can see that that person really thinks that that's the best thing for them. And I also have no...
way to be part of it for my own good. We can just see that plainly. Huh, who, clear. We can maybe even also perceive that that person may be dangerous. And we don't need to freak. We just need to behave accordingly because we've accurately perceived it from a state of non-fear judgment as best as we are able and just acted accordingly and moved either in the direction of, you know, like so.
So even if there are people that we trust that have yucky behaviors or people who we really should not trust who have monstrous behaviors, we can respond accordingly to the entity beneath. Do you know what I'm saying?
Lucy Baldwin (16:17.94)
Yeah, yeah, it's like we have the wherewithal to make, to truly receive it as it is because we're not, we don't have this veil of like overreaction to everything. We can take it in and actually have a centered process of, you know, just have a more maybe accurate, maybe, you know, less sort of biased. But this, I kind of want to go...
Laila Matthews (16:29.813)
Right.
Laila Matthews (16:42.656)
sensationalized.
Lucy Baldwin (16:44.362)
sensationalize that such a good word for I'm sitting here like I know there's a word and it's not coming to me either. But I think
Laila Matthews (16:50.068)
Well, it's, you know, I'm so glad, I'm so glad that the word came to me because before, I just want to say one thing on the topic of monsters, because I feel like we've been talking a little bit about how like we should get over it and like, and not be so sensationalized, right? We were just talking about how to desensationalize monsters. I really want to say that you are absolutely allowed to be sensationalized by monsters. You are absolutely allowed to, but do please.
Lean in maybe if you wish to have a little more peace and fun in the sensation, just do lean into just recognizing your own participation in amping up the sensation of the like the thing. And like, that's fun. I get it. I do the same thing. I was trying to do it earlier, but then I kind of realized that the thing that I was trying to get sensation from just like was kind of numb and it just didn't work anymore. You know what I mean? So.
Lucy Baldwin (17:40.309)
I wasn't participating, Leela, I'm sorry.
Laila Matthews (17:42.558)
I know you weren't, I know you weren't, so that's why. So that's the power, right? There wasn't any more sensation to be had from that anymore. Do you know what I mean?
Lucy Baldwin (17:52.203)
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. What we're saying is have fun and enjoy it because, you know, it is fun to get in to get like who you know, what's going on with this. But if you're going to do that, do it from a place of empowered place rather than from a victim place of like, this person did this thing to me. It's like, you know, it's like, this is sort of like fun. And, know, just because we want you to enjoy it. That's the whole point. That's what all of this is about is
for you to have the ability to take anything that comes up in life and be able to make it into a positive experience for yourself. I mean, that is like true fucking power.
Laila Matthews (18:38.933)
Absolutely.
Lucy Baldwin (18:39.066)
And, and I just want to go on a little side tangent here. I hope you'll come with me, Leila, about narcissism. Because I feel like, well, I feel like this right now is the big bad monster. And I just see so many people labeling other people as narcissists. And I just can't really get down with it for the most part. I think that there are, there are
Laila Matthews (18:45.952)
love a sight tangent.
the big, the big bad monster.
Laila Matthews (18:56.556)
100%.
Lucy Baldwin (19:08.694)
I don't want to go into a whole side, side tangent about psychology and like personality disorders.
Laila Matthews (19:14.41)
Yeah. I mean, neither of us are psychologists. I don't have the DSM standard of narcissism in my mind. And most people don't. Most people don't. So.
Lucy Baldwin (19:25.672)
Right. Most people don't. Right. But it's become like a very popular thing that we just kind of, people just diagnose everybody with if, you know, and I, I just, I don't see it helping a lot of people. Like, I don't think it's helpful to just be like, that person's a narcissist because I just think this is a good example because it's a very popular monster right now is the narcissist. And
Laila Matthews (19:53.888)
could, yep.
Lucy Baldwin (19:56.18)
What?
Laila Matthews (19:57.418)
Well, I mean, I do want to say I very much understand that people get involved with others with narcissistic qualities in deep and intimate ways that are scary and like truly disempowering like financial and physical abuse. And like, I do understand that that is a that's a dark circle of human hell that real human beings are living through now have lived through and, you know, will
Find themselves in again. So like I do say just with sensitivity. I Understand that it's very rough and damage is done and and In my experience of human beings, which of course is not complete is Just is very small actually In my experience of human beings the narcissist and the codependent exist
together as a little particle, like a proton and electron. They are a unit. They are a unit. I have encountered scary people on the narcissistic side. And I have also encountered people who
really scare me on the codependent side. And I feel like the scariness of the codependent side doesn't get nearly as much press as the scariness of the narcissistic side. Usually there's less violence, you know? But anyway, the point is they exist together and they attract one another and
Anyway, they can't exist without one another. So if we're talking about the evils of narcissism, I think it's important that we also are willing to look at the downsides of codependency. Do know what I mean?
Lucy Baldwin (22:02.697)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's I think that a lot of people project narcissism because there's a real thing in our culture right now. Like you're not supposed to be self oriented. You're not supposed to be like. You know, you're were supposed to be very like oriented around other people and serving other people and supporting other people. And it is.
you know, there's a lot about putting other people first and people, know, there's, for a long time, I felt like everybody I knew was just always making such a big deal about how they're such an over giver. And it's just, they're just such an over giver. And that's a form of virtue signaling. And, and then they're like, but that person's it must be a narcissist because they're just taking. And this is sort of like what you're talking about. And I just think that most people, I just think that like,
Laila Matthews (23:00.189)
Yeah, I mean, I like to, like to, you know, in that equation, in that equation, I like to think of the great poet, philosopher, enlightened saint, Walt Whitman, who I'm going to paraphrase in his poetry says, you know, never was there more beginning or ending, never was there more living or dying, never was there more giving or taking, right? Like there's an equal amount of giving and taking. It adds up in the end.
Lucy Baldwin (23:00.255)
Most people are not narcissists.
Laila Matthews (23:30.047)
giving and taking. So if you are such an over giver, you're such an over giver, there's got to be people who are taking more because you're giving more. You're giving a lot. So there has to you require that there be a lot of people to take because you are sucking up a lot of the giving. So but then you judge the taking but you require the taking in order to be able to give. So this is
Lucy Baldwin (23:50.733)
But, but yeah.
Laila Matthews (23:58.347)
You know what I'm seeing you see what I'm seeing
Lucy Baldwin (23:59.864)
Well, I also see this on an individual level where it's like if you're over giving, you have to be taking somewhere unconsciously. In order to be able to over give, you have to take from somewhere else. So I'm just like, from something, from somebody, yeah. And so, but if you take too much from yourself, you're gonna have to...
Laila Matthews (24:12.458)
Hmm?
often from yourself, but maybe from others. Yeah, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Lucy Baldwin (24:23.905)
lean on other, you're going to have to take from others in order to be able to sustain the over giving. there's, you may be consciously giving, but you're unconsciously taking.
Laila Matthews (24:30.8)
Mm-hmm never was there more taking or giving never was there more living or dying? Never was there more Breathing in or breathing out same it adds up in the end. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm I guess I have seen more like very nuanced conversations about the narcissistic behavior pattern that people are really upset about but I do think that you know,
The reason it gets overused is because if we were to write on our little list and put narcissist on the narcissist on the list, what would we say is like some of the neutral qualities like self-advocacy, self-advocacy gone completely fucking insane, right? Like, or you know what I mean? Self-interest.
Lucy Baldwin (25:26.701)
Well, I think this is-
Laila Matthews (25:28.51)
gone awry. So, but again, like if you are a person who is willing to have boundaries, self-interest and self, you know, like push for your agenda, then there will be people who will be like, narcissist. And so that's the misusing of it is, is when people are using it to put down other people's self agency that they don't like, that they don't like.
for one reason or another. They don't like the person who's doing it. They don't like the way that they're doing it. It's unskillful. Maybe it is unskillful, you know? Maybe it is coming across inconsiderate of other people. Maybe they're not wrong to be put off by the way that the self-assertion is happening. So I'm not saying that like it's a completely one-sided thing, but like I think that's why it gets thrown around so, so, so much.
Lucy Baldwin (26:23.608)
Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, I definitely think that, you know,
Like you said, some people are just more likely to get preyed upon. I would say just personally, I've had very limited experience with narcissists in my life. I just haven't met very many people that I actually thought were a narcissist. And I've heard a lot of them, people that I know called narcissists. And I was just like, don't see that. And I think that it's just...
I think that when we're really obsessed with any given monster, especially like culturally, it can be really easy to sell ourselves short, to prejudge people based on, because then it's like people aren't, I think it's actually important for people to take care of themselves. I think it's actually really important for people to have boundaries.
I think it's really important for people to ask for what they want. And I just see how sometimes those exact qualities that I think are extremely healthy. Like I think that if you're just, if you're always seeking, if you're always looking for narcissism, you're gonna miss out on some of the most like actually together, healthy, like emotionally healthy people. If you see like good boundaries and self-advocacy as narcissism, you know.
Lucy Baldwin (27:58.179)
And so this is just, I think this is just a really like poignant example of what we're talking about where if you're afraid of that archetype, you will not be able to like be centered in just receiving people as they are.
Laila Matthews (28:14.354)
to clarify, I do not think that narcissists have good boundaries. I think that narcissists have the exact same blurring of boundaries as codependent to do in the opposite direction. Because the thing that makes people who behave in narcissistic fashions dangerous is that they believe that other people exist to fulfill them. And that's it. There is a loss of
Lucy Baldwin (28:36.556)
Yeah, I don't think they do either. I don't think they do either. I think people see good boundaries.
Laila Matthews (28:39.364)
But so I think it's the self, it's the self-advocacy of the narcissist, the involving and enrolling others in the plans, schemes, notions, movements, ideas, visions of, you know, like anybody, like I think that anybody who
Basically, I think one of the reasons that people are afraid of being seen is because anybody who's like standing up and saying, I have something important to say is at risk of being, you know, called down because you is being, is at risk of being accused of being self-absorbed and self-centered and self-aggrandizing because you, you are needing other people to pay attention to enroll in and be part of your thing.
But like we said, that's actually a positive quality. Whatever that self, you know, organizing around the vision of the self, that's a positive quality that gets taken to the negative detrimental extreme in narcissism. And I guess what I really want, yeah, what I was trying to get at is like, the boundaries aren't good. The self advocacy is out of control. But yeah, sorry.
I I lost my point precisely.
Lucy Baldwin (30:05.272)
Well, no, I think you were saying, and I think you're right, that narcissists don't have good boundaries because I was listing good because I what I've seen is like people who have good boundaries, other people are like, they must be a narcissist because they're not doing what I want. Yeah. Yeah.
Laila Matthews (30:16.532)
Well, they're selfish. Yeah, because they're selfish. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I see what you're saying. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're selfish because they don't want to be influenced by you. Yeah. It's, yeah, I mean, there's definitely, it's a monster that gets thrown around and projected on people inappropriately. Inappropriately. Uh-huh. Yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (30:44.396)
Yeah, I think
Laila Matthews (30:44.98)
I get scared of people who call other people narcissists too much because it makes me, it makes me feel like they might be a scary codependent that, that like, you know, does other spooky stuff.
Lucy Baldwin (30:48.685)
Will me too.
Lucy Baldwin (31:01.346)
Yeah, yeah, because I've come up, like somebody really close to me was in a business partnership with somebody who I think is like probably maybe the only true like diagnosable narcissist I've maybe ever met that I would say like, I really think that person like actually, insofar as that disorder exists, like I would say they maybe have it. And I came into like that person, I...
I never could that person was never gonna sweep me up in her thing. Like that was never gonna happen because My alarm bells were just like that's weird. Nope. Nope. Nope. and she you know She we like spat each other out so fast, right? It was never gonna happen and I think that Yeah, I think I and it's easy to be lit to be swept up in things and i'm
I I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but I think that...
Lucy Baldwin (32:07.65)
I just think that it's more rare than we want to think. And I think that it comes from the fear of being seen as being too self-absorbed, being too selfish, being too much about ourselves. And I think a lot of people have that fear because deep down we all know that we do put ourselves first. And I think that that's normal and healthy. I think that we have to put ourselves
first or we're setting ourselves up for extreme failure. I mean, with the exception of our kids, but it's like, Mike, I do that for me. Like I put my kids before me for me. Like there's just, there's no way around it. Like if you, if you don't put yourself first, you are going to that. That's not, I just don't think that's going to turn out well. And so I think that there's this fear of being seen in that and then being
seen as bad and I just don't think that that is bad. I think that's actually healthy.
Laila Matthews (33:10.045)
I I agree. And like, mature self-interest understands that taking care of relationships and other people and, you know, the world at large is a self-motivatedly good thing to be a part of. You know what I mean?
Lucy Baldwin (33:31.436)
Exactly. Even as an empath, like it hurts me to see other people in pain. So I want to relieve that pain, both for them, but also for me. You know, it's like, because it hurts me.
Laila Matthews (33:32.988)
and and
Laila Matthews (33:48.787)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well.
Lucy Baldwin (33:55.439)
Sorry, was, thank you for going on that side tangent with me, Leila. I mean, it's not really a side tangent. It's more just like maybe the most extreme example we have right now in our culture of like a monster.
Laila Matthews (33:59.039)
yeah, no. No.
Laila Matthews (34:05.853)
Yeah, yeah, monster that can just capture, moves a lot of power and a lot of charge in the psyche. I can feel it now. I'm even like, what are people gonna think? Did we say the wrong things about the monster under the bed? You know what I mean? I am like, are they gonna think I'm a monster? You know what I mean? Like, I, this is really.
Lucy Baldwin (34:24.196)
Are they gonna think?
Laila Matthews (34:34.473)
It's a scary one, it really is.
Lucy Baldwin (34:36.696)
Well, Leila, I just want to go on the record saying that I don't think that two narcissists could have as healthy a working relationship as you and I do. Right? mean...
Laila Matthews (34:42.953)
Okay, okay, all right, great. Yeah, I think that's true. I think that's absolutely true, great. Phew.
Lucy Baldwin (34:53.622)
Well, my ex-husband's mother, so my ex-mother-in-law, she thought that I was a narcissist.
Laila Matthews (35:03.047)
Hmm. Well, yeah, I get it. You are you're so cold. You're so cold. You're so selfish yourself. I get it. I understand.
Lucy Baldwin (35:05.806)
So there you go. It didn't work at all. I was like, yeah, well.
Laila Matthews (35:18.653)
Well, do we have anything else we want to say about monsters? I guess I was just thinking about how all monsters must certainly, you know, have a prey and like who is the prey of a monster. And I think just, you know, really like thinking about these dynamics a little bit in one's mind is good. Good medicine.
Lucy Baldwin (35:39.544)
Yeah, I think the main takeaway that I have, like for me with all of this is that...
You can't just reject the monster and then think that that's gonna make you safe from it. That's what makes the monster so monstrous.
Laila Matthews (36:00.18)
Well said. Precisely.
Lucy Baldwin (36:04.578)
Yeah. And you know, you had the idea to talk about this today, Leila, and you started it by saying, you know, talking about what you did. Yeah. And what you did mention earlier, like, it is very much about what other people think. You know, and this is where I circle back to the narcissist thing, just not to bring it back to that, but I am going to, because the whole preoccupation with narcissists, sorry, with monsters in the first place is all about this
Laila Matthews (36:13.417)
Fear Begets Fear.
Lucy Baldwin (36:33.014)
Selfish desire to be seen a certain way and this is I don't think there's anything wrong with that Yeah, yeah, and there that is out of self-interest and that is okay It is okay to care what other people think of us and also we have to let it go a little bit like we have to loosen our grip on trying to control what other people think of us because otherwise we get trapped in these monster paradigms and also
Laila Matthews (36:36.841)
To have a pristine reputation. Right, yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (37:02.09)
you can never control what people think of you. Like you just never have any control over it. And when you try to control what people think of you, that again is where you start to, then you get into monster territory because you can never control other people. And people are always going to think whatever they're going to think. They're going to hear whatever they're going to hear. And it doesn't even really matter what you say sometimes.
Lucy Baldwin (37:28.558)
So, yeah, just realizing like it's actually more important what you think of you. Because if you know that your intentions are good and you've gone into yourself and you've investigated that and you have found it to be true again and again and again, then when somebody accuses you of being a monster, it's just not going to affect you. It's just not going to carry any weight. It's not going to matter. And so then it can't have
that control over you, like Layla's talking about.
Lucy Baldwin (38:09.262)
Thanks, Leila. This was really fun. I love talking about monsters.
Is there anything else we want to share? I know. So we have an amazing membership and it's an online community and it's called Dominion and you should totally join. We do awesome calls. Yeah, Layla does a call every month where she...
Laila Matthews (38:22.643)
we do.
Laila Matthews (38:31.209)
Absolutely, yes. Yes, I do a once a month call, which I just call a coffee chat with me where we have basically an open forum. So if you want to come and ask questions, you can chat with me and the other brilliant, genius people doing this work in our community. So Danny does coaching calls.
Lucy Baldwin (38:57.59)
Yeah, and she does this community thing that we made up, which is really, really, really cool. It's really fun. And yeah, we have some somatic oriented calls and a bunch of really good stuff. So come and check it out.
Laila Matthews (39:13.598)
Yeah, we'd love to get to know you. See you there. Bye.
Lucy Baldwin (39:16.888)
Alright, see you there.
New to Lucy’s work?
Start with Lucy Baldwin’s complete overview of Shadow Alchemy here:
Lucy Baldwin’s Shadow Alchemy Hub
Penetrate Radio explores shadow work, desire, magic, embodiment, self-honesty, radical approval, Existential Kink, and the hidden patterns that shape our lives from underneath.
Frequently Asked Questions
What does it mean to own your monsters?
Owning your monsters means becoming willing to see the qualities, labels, and archetypes you most fear in yourself, without collapsing into shame or using them to excuse harm.
Why do monster labels have so much power?
Monster labels have power when they carry fear and exile. If being called selfish, manipulative, bitchy, or narcissistic feels unbearable, the fear of that label can control your behavior.
How can a monster have a positive quality underneath it?
Many monster labels are distorted versions of neutral or useful qualities. “Bitch” may hide outrage and self-expression. “Manipulator” may hide influence. “Selfish” may hide healthy self-interest.
Is this episode saying narcissistic abuse is not real?
No. The episode acknowledges that abusive narcissistic patterns can be real and harmful. It also explores how “narcissist” has become a cultural monster label that is sometimes misused to shame self-advocacy, boundaries, or visibility.
Why is over-giving a shadow pattern?
Over-giving can contain hidden taking, resentment, virtue signaling, self-abandonment, or the unconscious need for others to receive too much so you can maintain the identity of being the generous one.
Next Steps
If this episode resonated with you, the next step is DOMINION: A Field of Radical Approval.
DOMINION is Lucy Baldwin’s space for practicing radical approval, shadow integration, desire work, monster reclamation, and the deeper transformation at the heart of Shadow Alchemy.
You can also continue exploring Lucy’s current offerings, free practices, podcast links, and other work here: