Shadow Alchemy and Existential Kink: Welcome to Penetrate Radio | Penetrate Radio, Episode 1
In Episode 1 of Penetrate Radio, Lucy Baldwin opens the podcast with Leila Matthews, Dani Granaroli, and Holly Kiefer for a deep introductory conversation on Shadow Alchemy, Existential Kink, embodiment, radical approval, spiritual bypassing, and what it really means to love the shadow without flattening the work.
This episode introduces the core terrain of the show: the taboo, hidden, exiled, difficult, painful, and secretly pleasurable parts of being human. Rather than treating shadow work as an abstract intellectual concept, Lucy, Leila, Dani, and Holly bring it into the body, into lived experience, and into the real practice of feeling what is actually happening instead of performing the “right” spiritual response.
Watch or listen to Episode 1 of Penetrate Radio here:
Key Takeaways
In this episode, Lucy, Leila, Dani, and Holly explore:
what Shadow Alchemy and Existential Kink are really about
why “love and light” spirituality often fails to reach the deepest material
how shadow work allows us to love the parts of ourselves we usually exile
why Existential Kink must be embodied, not merely understood intellectually
the difference between radical approval and spiritual bypassing
why trying to convince yourself you like something is not the point
how sensation, charge, waves, and release work in an Existential Kink practice
why shadow work includes both the “no” and the “yes”
how aftercare, community, and containment support deep shadow work
why there is no perfect way to do this work
What Is Penetrate Radio?
Penetrate Radio is a podcast about Shadow Alchemy and Existential Kink: the work of entering the hidden, taboo, disowned, and charged parts of human experience with honesty, curiosity, embodiment, and radical approval.
In this first episode, Lucy Baldwin introduces the show alongside Leila Matthews, Dani Granaroli, and Holly Kiefer. Each of them came to this work through Carolyn Elliott’s Existential Kink and years of experience practicing, teaching, coaching, and holding people through intense shadow work containers.
This is not a podcast about spiritual self-improvement in the usual sense. It is not about polishing yourself into a more acceptable personality. It is about meeting the material that has been pushed into the basement of the psyche, then discovering that those unloved parts are not outside the sacred after all.
Shadow Work Goes Where “Love and Light” Cannot
A major theme of the episode is the limitation of purely “love and light” spirituality. There is nothing wrong with love, light, compassion, or gentleness. The problem comes when those ideas become a way to avoid the parts of life that feel ugly, dangerous, angry, violent, jealous, selfish, painful, or unacceptable.
Leila describes shadow work as the medicine that reached places where more sanitized spiritual approaches could not. For many people, the language of universal love can feel too soft, too abstract, or too disconnected from the actual intensity of being human. Shadow work enters through the back door. It says yes to the cigarette, the bad thought, the shameful pleasure, the secret resentment, and the part that does not want to be improved.
That is why Shadow Alchemy can feel like such a relief. It does not ask you to pretend that you are only peaceful, kind, evolved, and generous. It asks whether you can include the part that wants to harm, dominate, collapse, hide, manipulate, gossip, rage, or enjoy the drama of your own life.
Radical Approval Is Not Apathy
One of the most important distinctions in this episode is that radical approval does not mean apathy. It does not mean that everything is “perfect,” so you never act. It does not mean you stop caring, stop setting boundaries, or stop telling the truth.
This is where Existential Kink can be misunderstood. If someone reduces the practice to “there is a part of me that loves this,” they may accidentally use the teaching to bypass themselves. They may try to convince themselves they like something when the real truth is more complex.
The work is not about domination. It is not about forcing yourself into approval. It is about honestly finding what is alive in the body. Sometimes that means finding the secret pleasure, yes, but sometimes it begins by fully approving the no. The disgust, refusal, anger, grief, resistance, and “absolutely not” are also part of the truth.
Shadow Alchemy does not flatten experience into fake positivity. It makes room for the whole charge.
Existential Kink Has to Be Embodied
Dani and Holly both emphasize that Existential Kink cannot stay in the head. You can understand the theory perfectly and still miss the work if you are only moving concepts around intellectually.
The practice begins in the body. That might mean lying down, doing a body scan, relaxing, dancing, breathing, or simply noticing where sensation is already present. The body is where the charge lives. It is where shame, pleasure, fear, disgust, grief, arousal, anger, and release become available.
A real Existential Kink practice is not about saying the right sentence until you believe it. It is about following the actual sensation. Where does it live? What does it feel like? Does it build? Does it peak? Does it release as laughter, crying, erotic charge, heat, trembling, softness, or clarity?
The body tells the truth that the mind often tries to manage.
The Difference Between Pain and Suffering
Lucy names a core insight of Existential Kink: pain and suffering are not the same thing.
Pain can be intense, but suffering often comes from resistance. When something painful arises and the psyche immediately says, “No, this should not be happening,” a second layer is created. The pain is still there, but now there is also contraction, refusal, shame, panic, or self-attack.
Existential Kink trains us to feel what is happening without adding as much resistance. That does not mean pretending pain is not painful. It means allowing the wave of sensation to move through the body instead of freezing around it.
When the wave is allowed to move, the charge can begin to dissipate. Sometimes it moves quickly. Sometimes it comes in layers over months or years. The point is not to finish perfectly. The point is to stop treating your own sensation as the enemy.
You Are Not Trying to Convince Yourself
One of the clearest red flags in this work is the attempt to convince yourself that you like something.
That is not Existential Kink.
If someone is mentally arguing themselves into approval, they are still in a domination pattern. They may be using the language of the practice to override the actual body.
A better approach is curiosity. Is there a part of me that loves this? Is there a part of me that hates this? Is there a part of me that is getting something from this pattern? Is there a part of me that refuses to approve of the part that gets something from it?
This is where the work becomes nuanced. The “yes” and the “no” do not have to be enemies. The part that enjoys the pattern and the part that wants it to stop can both be included. Both can be felt. Both can be approved of. Both can reveal something important.
There Is No Doing It Wrong
A recurring insight in the conversation is that there is no perfect way to do this work.
Sometimes you can be brave and honest. Sometimes you cannot. Sometimes you can feel the truth directly. Sometimes you conceal it, avoid it, intellectualize it, or act from a mask. Even that can become part of the practice.
The point is not to create another self-improvement system where you are constantly failing at being spiritual. The point is to notice what is happening and become willing to feel the sensations around it.
If you feel cowardly, that is sensation.
If you feel ashamed, that is sensation.
If you feel proud of your own failure, that is sensation too.
Nothing has to be excluded from the field of practice.
Shadow Work Needs Containment
Dani brings in an important comparison between Existential Kink and erotic kink: the container matters.
In kink, safety, consent, negotiation, parameters, and aftercare are essential. Those structures create the conditions where people can explore intensity without being harmed by it. Shadow work is similar. When you are working with taboo material, painful sensation, shame, erotic charge, trauma, or deeply exiled parts of yourself, containment matters.
A container might be a formal practice time, a supportive group, a coach, a ritual structure, a somatic process, or clear aftercare. Without a container, this work can become overwhelming, bypassed, or misapplied.
Shadow Alchemy is powerful medicine. Like any powerful medicine, it deserves care.
Aftercare Is Part of the Practice
Deep shadow work can feel like a scene. You may pass through fear, embarrassment, intensity, charge, exposure, pleasure, grief, or release. When it is over, you may need tenderness.
Aftercare might look like resting, being kind to yourself, drinking water, talking with someone safe, journaling, touching your body, or acknowledging that you just moved through something significant.
Leila describes a kind of inner aftercare where you say to yourself, “You did a good job there, sweetheart.” You made it through something big. You felt something scary. You played your part in the drama of life, and now you get to be gentle with yourself.
This is part of what makes the work humane. Shadow work is not about being tough. It is about becoming more honest and more loving at the same time.
Community Helps the Work Land
Another major thread in the episode is the need for community. Existential Kink can create a profound shift in worldview, and that shift can feel isolating if you have no one to talk to about it.
When you begin to see that your psyche may be secretly participating in the very patterns you consciously reject, it changes how you understand yourself, your life, your suffering, and your desire. That is not always easy to carry alone.
Community gives people a place to ask questions, share experiences, receive reflection, and realize they are not uniquely strange for having taboo, contradictory, or difficult inner material. The shadow becomes less terrifying when it is held in a field of honesty, humor, tenderness, and consent.
The Real Invitation of Shadow Alchemy
The real invitation of Shadow Alchemy is not to become a better person by cutting off the bad parts. It is to become more whole by telling the truth about what is actually here.
That truth may include love. It may include violence. It may include shame, eroticism, grief, laziness, cruelty, devotion, envy, tenderness, fear, and delight. It may include the part that wants the pattern to end and the part that has been secretly enjoying it.
This is not always comfortable work. It is not always tidy. But it is alive.
Shadow Alchemy brings us into deeper engagement with life because it stops requiring us to exile so much of ourselves in order to belong to the sacred.
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speaker-1 (00:15.01)
Hey, hello, welcome to Penetrate Radio episode one. This is a podcast all about shadow alchemy and existential kink. I am your host, Lucy Baldwin, and I'm here today with my compadres, Lela Matthews, Danny Granaroli, and Holly Kiefer. We are each gonna give a quick introduction of ourselves here right now, and then we're gonna get into talking about shadow alchemy and existential kink and what this podcast is all about.
Layla, would you care to share a little bit about yourself?
Yeah, I'm gonna do my best to be brief, okay? So I got here, if I had to say how I got here is that I fell in love with the work of Existential Kink by Carolyn Elliott. And I wanted to spread the good news, the good news of Existential Kink with everyone because I was like, this is the missing piece. This is like a truth that I had always known was true. But Carolyn put it into words in a book.
that like resonated that truth so hard. And I was like, this is true for everyone and everyone needs to feel this resonance. So anyway, I was gonna just rip Carolyn's work off and start coaching people and teaching existential kink. But then I worked for her with her and through her business for many years, bringing existential kink to the people. And I just, that is a...
That desire to spread the good news has been with me ever since I first heard it. And that's why I'm here today. And that's what I've been occupying a good amount of my time doing for the last five years now, working with many, many, many people in digesting this work and uncovering the shadow. I would say that my...
speaker-0 (02:07.308)
by way of introduction, I would just say that my special flair is for just really, really tenderly loving and having compassion for the difficult to love parts of humanity and people's selves. So I'm Leila Matthews and that's how I got to be here.
And we are so glad to have you. Thank you. Danny.
Oof, juicy.
So yeah, I got here also through Caranell.
Carolyn Elliott and her book, Existential Kink, in a very magical way.
speaker-3 (02:44.814)
I don't know exactly what came to my life, but when I read that book, was
was literally world-changing. Like my reality shifted in reading that book. And I had so many paw moments, so many ways of getting to like reframe my existence, my reality. It was mind blowing. And I continued to go through her mystery school, learn from all of you and get to also work with you. And just, I love going deeper and deeper. have gone over this book.
off.
speaker-3 (03:06.432)
and morality that
speaker-2 (03:23.162)
many times and these practices and it is just there is such a depth to this work will continue to evolve and it evolves for me over and over and that's why I love being here and talking about that. I have a background in bodywork and somatics and I absolutely love
this work that
speaker-2 (03:48.236)
this like intersection of the body and the mind and the way that we get to be in the soft fluffy dribble.
not only just like be comfortable warm places, but really
deepen and expand into those edges that are uncomfortable and how much grace and growth and beauty comes from that the taboo and the unloved and the exiled parts of us. So that's why I'm here.
Yes, thank you so much, Dani and Holly.
I got here by Googling how to be a witch on the internet. And that brought me to Carolyn Elliott's work and holding and how to be a witch on the internet is how to is holding that energy in yourself. And existential kink is also so much about holding that energy in yourself. And by holding that in myself, I'm able to hold other people with so much more delight and care and love. And
speaker-2 (04:51.2)
I also trained as an EK coach at the same time that I was going to grad school for clinical social work. So I got to have these two wildly different but also beautifully similar approaches, like really weave into each other because social work is strengths-based. And when you're in EK, you see everything as strength in some form.
It's been a wild ride. I've worked with Caroline in Sleepover Mystery School for a few years now, and it's just been an absolute joy to get to really embody a piece of myself that I might not have gotten to without having this perspective brought to me. Yeah, also have a history of massage, yoga, and somatics, and
the embodied quality of this work is really what makes it land for me in a way that so many other approaches like would come in and be like, yeah, that's cool. And then they'd skitter off. But this one has stayed because it's something that you can hold in your tissues.
Yes, yeah, and I should probably mention we actually all worked together in putting on a mystery school with Carolyn and Laila and I
would say actually we have all worked, this is like a, this is a crew of the four of us who did a lot of actually energetic heavy lifting, holding groups of people coming through a deep shadow work portal.
speaker-1 (06:28.494)
for a few years.
For several years, and all of us do that variously and separately, individually in our own work. And yeah, think, anyway, I'm just happy to be here with you girls.
Yeah. And I would like to share that for me, you know, I was really, I was into heavy into medicine work and psychedelic medicine work when I came across Carolyn's work. And this was before she wrote the book. This was when people were starting to see the dangers of spiritual bypass, see this whole idea of leaning into those things rather than shying away from them. And
giving them space and honoring our truths. And it just felt so true with a capital T for me. I actually went, this was many years ago, I went to a retreat and met Holly there and then went to another retreat and met Layla there. And it's just crazy how everything has sort of woven together over the years.
and that we've all been just pretty obsessed with this work. All of us have taken many people through really intense and deep experiences with existential kink and the surrounding philosophies and things that we've been teaching. And we've coached in a lot of group containers and just been, I mean, so many hours and hours we've spent on the mat with people taking them through these processes, helping them with misconceptions and things where
speaker-1 (07:56.398)
people have been stuck in places where people have sort of struggled with this. So we have so much to share and that's really what this podcast is going to be about because we know, we all know there's so many people out there who this speaks to you. This work speaks to you in a way that, and it has the ability to completely change and transform and do amazing things for your life. And also we want to help with some of the things that people struggle with and we want to share what we know.
Yeah, so I just wanted to chime in and just kind of say, okay, I definitely got, I definitely found existential kink because I was very tired of some of the very same kind of spiritual bypass, love and light, it's only good. Like I had spent many years actually in nonviolent activist spaces.
working with people who were, you know, just very conscious about every kind of infraction that could be made from one person to another and sometimes rightfully, often rightfully so, but sometimes to a huge degree. Yeah, the, I'll just say it this way, whether you agree or disagree with the stance of nonviolence, it casts a large shadow because when you are completely, completely committed to nonviolence, then you're
only occupying one side of the non-violence, violence polarity in reality and nature abhors a vacuum. So there's, you know, we noticed that there, anyway, I had spent a lot of time there and I was really excited about this like backdoor kinky embrace of the shadow, embrace of the naughty, embrace of the part that wants to harm and kill because
seems to me that if we're always putting the desire to harm and kill onto other people elsewhere, we're likely to be harmed or killed. You know what I mean? Like we don't escape from the cycle by disowning it and putting it somewhere else. Anyway, I'm trying to get to the meat of it here. Existential King can shadow work and the love of the shadow and the love of the disowned and the parts of us that wanna, you know, do the wrong thing, the bad thing, the, you know, not good thing.
speaker-0 (10:18.822)
was so was like an elixir, a healing elixir to me. And it allowed me to finally, and I hope that maybe you have started to taste this also dear listener. And I think that Holly, Danny and Lucy will agree with me with the corn ball thing that I'm about to say is that this focus on the shadow allowed me to backdoor, like naughty, let in the truth that what I am.
loves me, loves life, loves everything, and has just nothing but total awe and engagement and enrapturement with me and everything that happens in my life. And that's very much like feeling just universal and total love. But when people were talking about it in this feathery way, I was like, ugh.
Cotton candy, I can't eat cotton candy for every meal. Sometimes I like cigarettes. Sometimes I like the bad things too, but like, can I love those as well? And existential kink really through the course of, you know, the years that I've worked with it now has steered me on a clear path of like, we can love it all. And at the same time, if we reduce existential kink to
there's always a part of me that loves everything. And if we reduce shadow work to all parts of us are lovable and good and why should we ever do anything about them to change them? And we just go into total acceptance of shadow. Then we're lost. We also get lost and it gets flattened. What I'm trying to say is it gets flattened in the same way that it got flattened when we were eating cotton candy, love and light. So
One of the things that I just really want to keep doing here on this podcast or, you know, bring in is staying with the truth that, you know, shadow work is about universal, uncompromising, total approval and love. And we have to be very careful when we're wielding that power to wield it responsibly. Do you know, do you guys know what I'm alluding to?
speaker-3 (12:43.534)
Yeah, totally. I don't know if this word but I'm the
feels right for you. love the word like apathy and
I've thought about like, before I had EK, those parts that I was ex-
or pretending didn't exist within me would send me to the free states and it takes so much energy to press those parts of yourself. for me, think this is very common for a lot of is we're so used to being cerebral, saying things intellectually.
These like.
speaker-3 (13:04.59)
energy.
And I think for me when I win the pay and I one of us is digest at the first place I went was there and I was like, yeah, yeah.
Okay, so I'm just gonna tell myself this is true and.
believe it and that is a place that I think can we have one of the one of the
think I wanted to talk in the past about what the caution signs around this work is, it can be way to when you are bypassing yourself. And you're falling into the same set of an apathy if everything is perfect right now. So that means any opinions about anyone in the world.
speaker-3 (13:40.366)
can't just be intellectual because it's That's a sense of really repression. But if you're like, well, I don't have to have anything going on or take any action feels like beautifully aligned for
that fully makes me feel alive in this life. So I think I can agree with me of like somatically getting it into your tissues and the honest experience of it that makes this work so profound.
So, you know, all of you can tell me that that is the part.
speaker-3 (14:17.198)
truly honestly have that.
Yeah, I mean, it's just, I think, I guess I'm just trying to bring up the fact that on a very high level, shadow work, to me, in my opinion, in my experience, shadow work brought me where love and light could not. And I think many of the people listening to this podcast will relate having read Existential Kink and tasted some of the like expansion and brightening and like hopefulness.
Yes, agreed.
speaker-0 (14:51.542)
And truth, honestly, like Lucy was saying, capital T truth that we are really here to enjoy. We're really here to enjoy and be moved. And I think that's maybe, I guess maybe that's like part of the nuance here is that when we talk about like love and like enjoyment and embrace and getting off and all of that, I think what we really mean is we are deeply touched.
and naturally express what is really true for us. And it's important to use the tool to always go to the deeper and deeper and deeper truth, not like you are saying, Danny, stay up in the like, well, I, you know, I pushed the puzzle pieces around and I'm saying the right things, but never sink into, like a really concrete example of this that I know from my many experiences coaching people is,
Let's say somebody has a don't like situation that they are wanting to get off on. Is this all right? This is what we're supposed to be talking about, Lucy. Let's say that somebody has a don't like situation they're wanting to get off on and they're trying to find their yes to that situation. That's classic. That's classic getting off on it, finding the joy in it, finding the approval in it, finding the things that we can love, enjoying even this, enjoying the sensations of having that happen to us. And also sometimes it's important to equally
give truth and acknowledgement and approval and like love for the part of us that's like, fuck this, absolutely not, no. Because that's also a somatic experience that we have that can be approved of and loved and accepted instead of being in a constant fight of either I'm a yes or I'm a no. And I have to then like turn
the yes and the no into enemies within me.
speaker-3 (16:51.63)
Do you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, I mean, the number one red flag for me is when people are trying to convince themselves that they like something. That's not what it's about. Well We're not trying to convince ourselves. That's like a thinking in circles.
Yeah, what I find really helpful for people is like, ask if there's a part of you, see if it's there. And it's being more in conversation and curiosity and love than being like, you have to do this. Because that kind of domination is what, yeah, we'll get to some trouble in the first place.
Yeah, I just know that when we feel the feelings, think that, know, what do want to say? Finding the part is wonderful. And I've had great experience with helping people find the part. But sometimes what I think EK really comes down to in a basic walking meditation kind of way that I find myself using it these days is I notice to myself like, wow, I'm having a real
A come up right now. I have a teenager, I have a baby, I have a seven-year-old. Feelings are coming up. You know, I have a husband, I have a life, I have people. You all know, we can all relate. But like a feeling is coming up. And when I notice that it moves through the most gracefully and causes the least friction and reveals the most truth is when I can like feel what it actually really is.
speaker-0 (18:26.514)
and just express myself from the place of what it actually is instead of being afraid of the sensation, being afraid of the feeling, squashing it down, putting it behind me, and then putting on some other mask in front and then trying to live life from that thing. That to me is like, but I have to have the courage. I have to have the courage.
to feel what I'm actually feeling. That's the like to me, EK part where the love and approval and the willingness to have the experience that I'm having is a, guides me home, guides me home in the moment, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. And I'd say the that gives such a, is such a gift from is the practice, right? Because it took years to get to that place. It's still there time. Right. So actually how specific
thing. The book.
speaker-2 (19:25.358)
took me.
that I'm not there. Having a specific time, here's my time, here's these are my training wheels over and over and over again is so helpful. Now
and over helpful. Even today, I will sit down and be like, all right, I'm doing a formal EK right now. Most of the time I
a session, right? I'm not, you know, like you were saying, for you, meditation, it become ingrained in you to have this open just conversation and feeling and honesty of experience.
Now it's a walking. It's just.
speaker-0 (20:00.906)
Listen, I mean, sometimes, I mean, I just want to be really honest, because I think it's important to be so. Sometimes I'm not capable of being honest. Sometimes I'm not capable of being brave like that. Sometimes I'm not. And I also have to love myself in the truth that I feel the need to conceal my truth sometimes, or I feel the need to do what needs to be done. I just like none of that has to become
Like you're doing it wrong. Like I just, guess the E K like, man, the E K thing that like really, I don't know the thing like there's no doing it wrong. There isn't a doing it wrong. There isn't a lingering you made the wrong choice, did the wrong thing, are the wrong thing, have the wrong thing, said the wrong thing. There's just sensations that I can be like, whoa, I can't believe I just said that to that person or my God, I can't believe I'm such a coward and I can't even say the truth right now. Sensation.
speaker-0 (21:04.002)
and like the willingness to feel that without being like.
Yeah.
Totally.
You know, do you know what I mean?
I absolutely do. I feel like that's love. Like, oh wait, actually, I'm doing it right. Right. Is you're still at this energy of EK of like, oh right. And doing it is so I'm going to use the word perfect, even though we all know that we don't mean
speaker-2 (21:12.11)
But I was getting towards and I'm that you're like, as I'm saying, sometimes I'm doing wrong. That is the EK. In moment that
Wrong is all.
speaker-2 (21:32.206)
perfect in some like, I don't know, clara-
Totally fine. It's totally fine. Endurable.
Yeah.
ahead. Danny, I'm wondering if you'd be willing, just for our dear listeners, to give a very quick sort of overview of what it looks like for you to sit down and do existential king practice.
Yeah, totally. Say you forget.
speaker-2 (21:56.654)
The first thing that I will say, really can't, don't miss. And it took me so many months to
recognize how potent this first step is. It is really one of the most important steps. The embodiment.
the most important thing is the Caroline talks about like, take examples. So, you know, whether that's like taking a bath, et cetera, et cetera. For me, often, like getting comfortable, laying down. So my body will go through a body scan of just feeling into and relaxing as much as can my body. Because
Relax, take a bath. She gives a lot of...
speaker-3 (22:23.074)
Me, it's very often. A lot of the time I'm. I feel supported and I.
speaker-3 (22:37.358)
Because that's where the magic happens. You have to be able to feel your body do this work.
Feel the sensations in your body to do work on this deeper level. So like get the real juice of it.
So that is the first.
step, absolutely the most important step in my opinion.
And then I will go into, you know, whatever topic I'm working on. Okay. I'll, be, actually there's a that came up last. was talking and I realized how beautiful our conversation was that. Forgiven some relationship that I.
speaker-2 (22:59.586)
You know, something really beautiful last night for me where I was talking with, is it okay if I share the story?
with an X and
speaker-2 (23:16.558)
He had forgiven me, but there were some aspects of her that I had not forgiven myself for. And so go into an EK session, I felt into the part, absolutely. Like Leila was saying.
getting to
where first part of me that
speaker-3 (23:34.542)
starting with my no. I didn't have approval at that point for the part of me that was
Google.
for forgiveness, you know, controlling and shitty. Really let myself sink into and the sensations in my body. How much a no about accepting that part of myself, how much was angry, in disgust really.
So instead, I re-
feel the body of how I was.
speaker-3 (23:58.666)
I was mad at myself for that part of myself and not always does it become erotic, but it becomes very erotic for me where I realize like, there is that love being not only a critical, but actually derogatory.
became very awry.
This dominating part of me... loves being...
And like diminishing myself. I have no approval for that. I those sensations in my body and that I could feel into actually really enjoys beating the shit out of myself. I've done this for many years. So you might be
So it started as like, I got to feel that allowed me to. The part that.
speaker-3 (24:49.07)
It might be the right thing and it's like, for you and you levels like that. But I will tell you for so long, literally I was just, I've really helpful. Native with it. you're just following. What gives you that? You know, that might be erotic body. It might, it might just be.
top, like the levels just hit, go to these.
speaker-2 (24:57.344)
It was saying the sentences over and over, found the sentences in the book. But the more you can get creative and let it evolve, just sensation in your body. King is, and might charge somewhere in your body, right? Just building sensation, building sensation somewhere.
The idea is there's a... in your body that... know... session, you follow it until there's some sort of...
peak and catharsis of some sort, which might be a laugh, it might be a cry. And it also took me a really long time to realize. Success is there is some building and release of sensation of some sort. So I evolved even further.
be erotic, might be a cry, it might be any emotion. And that is like, it's not accessible when I'm
speaker-3 (25:49.827)
Bill.
speaker-3 (25:54.838)
Yeah, I mean, my story of more than that, but I think.
That's kind of the most important part, especially for people who are starting, letting that evolve and peak. the thing I want to say, you did not ask me this, but again, speaking from deep experience is.
on this journey of that.
The last thing
speaker-3 (26:15.862)
A lot of the time this once it's not like, okay, I did it once felt it. I'm very often these bigger.
Shit you don't just do-
Once I've done, then, things, you come back.
to and it's like they.
They shift in layers, they'll release or they'll evolve and you'll get to have different relationships with different parts of yourself. I don't know if you guys have those experiences, but that's my experience.
speaker-3 (26:33.592)
some layers.
speaker-1 (26:44.558)
Yes, absolutely. Like it comes in different angles and different textures. If I frame it a little bit differently in my mind, it hits a different note. And absolutely, absolutely. I know what you're talking about. And just for anybody who's kind of new to this, when you feel these sensations, when you actually let yourself feel the sensations, they can kind of wash over you. I think of it as a wave. We let the wave...
wash over us and we can let it go. It dissipates the charge around those things and that's how we're able to release them. It lets the sort of pattern, whatever the sort of knot in our psyche is able to move through when we allow the wave of sensation to come over us. And sometimes there are many waves that will come over us. And I always say, people always ask this very common question, how do I know when I'm done EK-ing something?
And I will usually say it's like when you can't find the charge anymore, like when there's not a biggest sensation there for you to work with, then you've probably moved it or try thinking about it in a different way. Holly, I would love to hear about what your EK practice looks like these days or how it's evolved.
Yeah, it's for me, like Danny says, the embodiment piece is the most important piece. Keeping it in my head and thinking about it is lovely, but also getting into my body and actually feeling what's alive. And I will actually let my body decide what's coming up. I'll do a body scan like Danny does, or dance, listen to music, and then get quiet and still and be like, okay, what am I feeling?
What am I constricting around? What am I holding? And then from there, go through layers of it, like, okay, so I'm feeling this sensation and what is the story that is with this? What story am I telling myself? What is feeding the sensation? And then play with it from there. And for me, like, and I love how Danny's speaking to the...
speaker-2 (28:53.844)
Get off isn't a one-time thing because I think that's a big hang up that people have. It's off. I'm over this and not that's that not how it works. And we get more, we get more fodder. Like that means we get to play with things more. And so I'll come back to things over and over and over again, like old stories. and I like to play with it from also,
I got it.
That's not...
speaker-2 (29:21.198)
from the trauma perspective of like, is this thing that exists in my body that has been stuck here for so long? And how can I feel what it's giving me and come at that feeling with love? How can I come to this with, even though it's like, it's big and it's painful and I don't like it, how can I sit with it in joy?
And like what Leila was speaking to also, like we can tend to use somatics too as an attempt to press down a feeling so we don't have to feel it, right? Like using, like wrapping somatics around a thing and then not actually having the feelings. And instead, like taking this perspective of like, yeah, this big thing is coming and I'm not gonna stop it. And I'm not gonna use my love to stop it, because we can do that too.
I can use my joy to stop a feeling and instead letting myself be with it in little, sometimes just little tiny bits. I'm a big believer in titration. How much of this can I sit with today? How much can I have? How much can I do? And sometimes it's not very much and sometimes it's a whole lot. So it varies a lot from day to day. And yeah, it gives us an opportunity to really
treat it with playfulness. And I think that has been the most helpful piece for me is like being playful with myself. And I used to have this idea too, that if I wasn't feeling it in my pussy, it wasn't real. there was no, this wasn't EK and letting myself laugh about things or dance about things or not have get off have to be about erotic.
physical erotic charge has been the beauty of it because then that also opens up into it. Not having gripping around what a thing is supposed to be has really helped me immensely. The should and releasing that has really helped me to deepen into a practice where sometimes I'm like, oh yeah, that was kind of kinky. My body will go through a process and be like, oh yeah, that was an EK practice. like it almost...
speaker-2 (31:42.808)
takes me through without me having to do it, which is really interesting to bring that awareness to it then too. like, yeah, here we go. This is my body being in process.
Mm-hmm. I love what you said about the Thai training. I also will kind of be like, okay, how much of this am I willing to feel right now? And I'll say, and then I'll try to kind of get to a point where I feel like, okay, this is it. And then I'll say, but I do give myself permission to feel more, you know, and I'm kind of checking in. Can I handle more? I can handle more right now. I can feel more right now. I'm an intense person though, so I like to go hard. I'm also, I'm curious though, Holly, you said something about how you can use your
and use love and use these different things to kind of shut down sensations. And I'm curious if you'd be willing to elaborate on what you mean by
Yeah, so it's a little bit of that spiritual bypass where it's like I can be so determined to enjoy, like this feels good. I can find the joy in this instead of first letting myself feel the pain of it, the heartbreak, the irritation. And I can have a tendency to skip over, like to use...
to use the fact that I know that I can get to joy to not actually feel the intense pain first. Does that make sense?
speaker-1 (33:09.472)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that is a crucial step to feel it exactly as it is and then give it permission and then kind of give ourselves permission to enjoy that. And that's how that's, I mean, for me in my experience, like that's how it shifts. And I think that there's a big, I think that EK has shown me that there's a huge difference and I talk about this all the time between pain and suffering, right? Because
Sometimes my pain, it does, feels good. And that's what EK teaches us, like the practice of EK doing this practice, it's like we're training ourselves to actually decouple pain and suffering because the suffering comes from the resistance. And EK is, on some level, it's just shedding the resistance. It's just choosing to let go of the resistance and just
feel what is actually there. And then there's kind of this extra step of giving it permission to feel good and seeking the pleasure in it. But before we can seek the pleasure, have to just, we have to kind of relinquish the judgment of the story so that we can feel the sensation as sensation. And that pain then...
Yeah, I mean, that's what kink is, right? It's feeling pain as pleasure.
Well, yeah, and I mean, part of what kink is, and part of why I think the kink framework is so, so helpful and so true and just, you know, gives you a right good spanking, is that when we are in a kink situation, we are playing with a not true identity. We are playing with a construct. We're acting. We're in a scene.
speaker-0 (35:06.158)
Right? We're in a scene. And on the existential level, we are always in a scene. know, Samsara is a dream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. We are just seeing reflections of our own psyche. are, the, the, the us that we really are is not the character in the dream. And Existential King helps us to remember that we are, we are the,
completely incorruptible, unharmable, totally safe witness of the drama. if that sounds like sick or weird or you have some objection to that, I just want to say it's okay, honey. We can admit to ourselves how much we love doing this. I was just on the phone with my sisters this morning and my sister was telling me about this like...
apocalyptic sci-fi that she was reading that contained just like horror upon horror and she read it cover to cover. You know what I mean? Like we don't put that book down. Are you joking? We do not put the apocalyptic horror novel down. We're like, when can I get back? When will nap time come again? When can I put the kids to bed so I can continue devouring another chapter of the apocalyptic horror novel that I'm reading? And that is what we're all doing on a spiritual level.
in our most tender moments as well. know, like I don't want to put down the Hallmark movie moment of my life. You know, they don't come that often. So like, let me just be present to it, you know, and having that change in perspective does not bring us to apathy. It brings us to even deeper and deeper engagement because when we remember how completely safe our real and true being actually is, then we can participate.
with just like total fearlessness in whatever is happening.
speaker-2 (37:07.022)
Hell yeah.
I want to like take a piece of that and take it back to this concept of kink too and this EK practice. Again, like I feel like I've said this a number times, it's beautiful about having it.
another time, but there's something so big about a container, And that this being the training wheels and the place that we start from, because in Kink, the most important thing is having the parameters set, having the negotiation agreements set. That container creates the safety and
actually having the set.
speaker-3 (37:40.62)
the rules, the agreement set because that's
and to allow those individuals to go into free expressive play.
free play to go into the depths of the intensity of to feel they can experience
of what they're trying to experience, they don't feel that they're their daily life, right? And that is all what this provides, is that safety to start to play with those parts that feels...
that scary and edgy and uncomfortable for some of us.
speaker-3 (38:18.062)
And for some of us, that's like, I'm a Gospi bitch. And for some us, that's like,
And for some of us
Oh, people want to love me and see value in me and those sorts of things, you know. So those containers are so important for us to feel safe to play with all of these edges. with, it's, you know, it's just, I mean, it's just abuse, let's be honest.
really want to
You
speaker-3 (38:46.125)
Out that.
speaker-0 (38:54.188)
Yes. Danny, I really am glad that you brought up the horrific
evil assault of people trying to love you. I just, I'm so glad you brought up the horror, the horror that that is. I feel like we could do a whole episode on all of the things that people say that they want, but are just secretly so upset by, just disgusted and horrified by.
100 % agree.
Yeah, I mean I 100 % understand and I'm really glad that you're here Danny to bring in the Boundary and containment and the awareness of the need for consent because I know that My consciousness can get very big in around this topic and be like hey listen Nobody's ever harmed anyone and we're all fine and everyone's fine and you are eternal and you can never be corrupted and
While that is also true, as human beings, we also can definitely be harmed.
speaker-3 (40:02.158)
100%.
speaker-2 (40:08.174)
Speaking on, I totally, I'm on board and a hundred percent having tried to work.
and start from that frame. That is how I did a lot of really beautiful bypassing. Like denigrate.
and continuing to.
control and, you know, dominate myself. Yeah.
word.
speaker-0 (40:35.086)
Yeah, if you're prone to self-domination, I mean, we all are a little bit, but yeah, it can come in many packages.
Yeah, this is, it's just discernment. We all have to have discernment for our own process. Always. With everything that we do. Yeah, like Carolyn Elliott wrote this book, Existential King, and she just like put it out into the world and... It's big stuff. Like it's really big.
It's a potent book. It's a big medicine. It's a big medicine that is full of healing, full of healing. And also, like many other medicines, must be applied, you know, with care and appropriately.
Yeah, that reminds me at one point, Leila, we were talking and you're talking about how, God, right, like, like actual needs after care. Yes.
You're a time.
speaker-2 (41:23.591)
King.
We do need aftercare.
Like I'm really curious what aftercare looks like for all of you.
I mean, to me, aftercare in existential kinkway to me definitely feels like, you know, the part of me that's like, if I do something hugely embarrassing and I've managed to get off on it, then I'm like, you did a good job there, sweetheart. You know, like you went through, like you went through a tough experience, you know, because like, as much as we would like to imagine that any progress in, you know,
self-development and self-understanding would lead us to a perfect and stress-free life. We all are now adults and realize that that's not going to happen. Like, things, tough experiences happen. you know, fortunately we can have the tools to deal with them, you know, wisely. And, yeah, like ride the wave as smoothly as possible through what is going on.
speaker-0 (42:34.176)
so as not to create more turbulence. But we never live an undisturbed life. And so to me, aftercare, part of aftercare is being like,
Yes, I got through a scary thing. Like I did a big scene and I was a brave girl and I played my part and I like showed up and enjoyed it. And also now it's over. And so I get to be like, wow, take it easy on yourself. That was a big performance. You know, that was a big one. You really good job. You know, you could have freaked out. You didn't freak out, but we still get to acknowledge that wasn't nothing. You know, like
Be tender with yourself. To me, that is part of the aftercare of the existential king of life.
You know?
Yeah, I'll second that. think that's a really important piece of aftercare. And I think also there's something to be said for getting into community and having conversations with people about what your experience is. We'll talk with each other about what's happening and like, or we'll ask questions or share our own experiences with each other. And so it helps to...
speaker-2 (43:52.396)
to create that sense of connection outside of your body, that can be really, really helpful. find that to be one of the things that sometimes will help me settle as well.
love that. And that really reminds me of I did a local E.C.L.E. book club for a bit.
and the people who came, every single person, the one thing that they really was, I needed community with this book. It was such a shift in consciousness and worldview for me that I actually knew
shared.
when I read the because it.
speaker-3 (44:30.048)
I needed other people to relate to so that I wouldn't feel
too isolated and alone in this like big chain that's happening for me. So thank you for like, fuck yeah, we're gonna bring that piece in.
And so that's happening.
speaker-3 (44:44.046)
college.
Yeah, yeah. that is actually, I should say that was part of the impetus for us creating this podcast because we're also creating, we are creating a community and there will be more coming out on that soon. But we are putting together a community and each of us will be in there and Holly's going to be doing monthly somatic work with people. Danny's going to be doing coaching and holding turn on calls.
Laila and I will be doing coffee chats and it will transition and what the community actually looks like. But we are creating a space for people to come together and yeah, just kind of like be in this work together because it's so important and so crucial. And is there anything else that anyone wants to share before we close this spinning introductory podcast?
said.
I'm just really glad to be here with you guys and to get to talk about this. And I hope that anybody listening who has any questions that came up during the podcast will type them in a comment so that we can be in engagement with you because it's just really important to me that we answer questions and give support to people who have been working with shadow work, either from a Jungian framework or from the existential kink framework or just stumbled upon it on your own or...
speaker-0 (46:07.51)
any other framework that I might be unaware of that this content seems helpful. I would just really love to be in conversation with you all.
How do people agree?
Senate.
Same.
Amazing, amazing. So what we're saying is we want to hear from you, dear listener, and we have many more podcasts to come. And in future episodes, there will be more of the four of us. There will be some with just some of us. We're going to be just kind of mixing it up. we're going to be interviewing people who have been trained in existential kink coaching. Many of these people have been trained by me and Layla.
speaker-1 (46:49.16)
Hopefully, we'll also interview people who haven't been trained in existential kink coaching and we'll be able to get their perspectives on things because, yeah, we're just really, we're getting into the weeds here and there's just so much good juicy conversations coming in this podcast. So I hope that you will stick around and listen. We'll be putting episodes out every Friday. So we'll see you next Friday. Thank you so much for watching.
New to Lucy’s work?
Start with Lucy Baldwin’s complete overview of Shadow Alchemy here:
Lucy Baldwin’s Shadow Alchemy Hub
Penetrate Radio explores shadow work, desire, magic, embodiment, self-honesty, radical approval, Existential Kink, and the hidden patterns that shape our lives from underneath.
Frequently Asked Questions
What is Shadow Alchemy?
Shadow Alchemy is Lucy Baldwin’s broader framework for working with the hidden, disowned, taboo, and charged parts of the psyche in order to create deeper wholeness, transformation, and self-honesty.
What is Existential Kink?
Existential Kink is a practice, developed by Carolyn Elliott, for finding the hidden pleasure, charge, or secret enjoyment in unwanted life patterns so that the resistance around them can soften and transform.
Is Existential Kink just about convincing yourself you like bad things?
No. In fact, trying to convince yourself you like something is a sign that you are probably bypassing. The practice is about honestly feeling what is present in the body, including both the yes and the no.
Why does embodiment matter in shadow work?
Embodiment matters because shadow material is not only conceptual. It lives as sensation, charge, tension, contraction, arousal, disgust, grief, and emotion in the body. The body is where the work becomes real.
Do I need community for this kind of work?
You can practice alone, but community can help immensely. Shadow work often changes your worldview, and having people who understand the terrain can provide support, reflection, containment, and aftercare.
Next Steps
If this episode resonated with you, the next step is DOMINION: A Field of Radical Approval.
DOMINION is Lucy Baldwin’s space for practicing radical approval, shadow integration, desire work, and the deeper transformation at the heart of Shadow Alchemy.