Power Dynamics and Shadow Work | Penetrate Radio, Episode 8
In Episode 8 of Penetrate Radio, Lucy Baldwin and Leila Matthews explore power dynamics, shadow work, kink polarity, the drama triangle, boundaries, consent, authority, reciprocity, and what happens when we become more conscious of the roles we are already playing in our relationships.
Power dynamics are not limited to coaching relationships, romantic relationships, kink scenes, families, or business hierarchies. They are present in every relationship, whether we notice them or not. When we do not notice them, we may unconsciously become a victim, a persecutor, a rescuer, a resentful sub, a sloppy dom, a martyr, a bully, or someone who keeps expecting other people to hold boundaries we have not claimed for ourselves.
This conversation is about becoming conscious enough to participate in power with more responsibility, clarity, pleasure, and honesty.
Watch or listen to Episode 8 of Penetrate Radio here:
Key Takeaways
In this episode, Lucy and Leila explore:
power dynamics as a hidden force in every relationship
the Dom/sub polarity as a lens for everyday life
the difference between immature domination and healthy leadership
why a good Dom serves, cares for, and enriches the sub
how the Karpman drama triangle traps everyone in victimhood
the empowered alternative: creator, challenger, and coach
why boundaries are something you hold, not something you demand others obey
how unconscious power dynamics create conflict in families, workplaces, and partnerships
why everyone needs to be able to say no
how appreciation and willingness can transform relational dynamics
why healing our relationship with power matters spiritually and socially
how Existential Kink frames us as reality’s sub
Power Dynamics Are Everywhere
Power dynamics are present in every relationship we have. They may be obvious in relationships like boss and employee, parent and child, teacher and student, coach and client, or leader and group member. But they are also present in friendships, marriages, collaborations, customer relationships, sibling dynamics, and even casual interactions.
This does not mean every interaction is oppressive or dramatic. It simply means that agency, authority, responsibility, need, influence, care, and receptivity are always moving between people.
When we do not see these dynamics, they can become sticky. A conflict that looks like a disagreement may actually be about who is holding authority, who feels responsible, who feels overpowered, who wants to be cared for, who is avoiding leadership, or who secretly resents the role they are playing.
Shadow work helps make those patterns visible.
The Dom/sub Lens Outside the Bedroom
Lucy and Leila use the Dom/sub polarity from kink as a way to understand everyday power dynamics. This does not mean every relationship is sexual or explicitly kinky. It means the archetypal structure of doing and receiving, leading and yielding, acting and being acted for, shows up everywhere.
A Dom is not simply someone who commands. A sub is not simply someone who is powerless. In a healthy dynamic, the Dom uses agency, leadership, and active energy in service of the sub’s pleasure, enrichment, support, care, or unfolding. The sub receives, experiences, and participates through willingness.
That is very different from the common misunderstanding where the Dom is imagined as a bully and the sub as a victim. In a healthy kink dynamic, consent changes everything. The power exchange is not supposed to be extraction. It is supposed to be mutually nourishing.
The Shadow of Dom Energy
The immature or shadow version of Dom energy is bullying.
It says:
I get to push people around.
No one can say no to me.
My desire matters more than anyone else’s.
Other people exist to serve my will.
This is not healthy power. It is domination without responsibility. It is force without care. It is power severed from reciprocity.
In everyday life, this can appear as bosses who extract from employees, parents who frighten children rather than lead them, partners who demand without listening, teachers who inflate themselves through students, or anyone who confuses authority with entitlement.
Healthy Dom energy is not less powerful. It is more responsible.
The Shadow of Sub Energy
The shadow version of sub energy is not simply obedience. It can show up as helplessness, resentment, passive resistance, difficulty being pleased, chronic neediness, refusal to communicate, or the belief that someone else should know what you need without you having to say it.
A sub can also become unconsciously controlling. If someone believes nobody can say no to them because they are needy, wounded, overwhelmed, or dependent, that is also a distorted power dynamic.
This is why everyone in a healthy dynamic needs access to no. The Dom must be able to say no. The sub must be able to say no. Without the capacity for no, the relationship becomes coercive, murky, or resentful.
Healthy sub energy is not helplessness. It is willing participation, receptivity, responsiveness, and the capacity to receive without collapsing into victimhood.
The Karpman Drama Triangle
Lucy and Leila also discuss the Karpman drama triangle, which includes three roles: victim, persecutor, and rescuer.
These roles can feel very different from the inside, but they all tend to lead to victimhood. The rescuer eventually feels victimized by the person they are helping. The persecutor feels victimized by the consequences of their own aggression. The victim stays trapped in helplessness and blame.
The triangle is sticky because it gives everyone a role. Someone is wronged, someone is wrong, and someone needs to save the day. But the deeper pattern is disempowerment.
Once you start seeing the drama triangle, it can be hard not to see it everywhere. That does not mean you will avoid it perfectly. People are human. We get swept up. We want to help. We get hurt. We blame. We rescue. We over-function. We collapse. The point is not perfection. The point is awareness.
The Empowerment Triangle
The healthier version of the drama triangle is often described as the empowerment triangle. In this model, the victim becomes the creator, the persecutor becomes the challenger, and the rescuer becomes the coach.
That shift matters.
The creator has agency. They can choose, act, respond, build, and participate in their life.
The challenger brings truth, friction, boundaries, and reality without needing to persecute.
The coach supports another person without taking over their life or becoming responsible for their choices.
This is a much more generative relational field. Instead of everyone sliding toward victimhood, the dynamic can create growth, accountability, clarity, and movement.
Boundaries Are Yours to Hold
One of the most practical teachings in this episode is that boundaries are something you hold.
A boundary is not primarily a demand that another person behave correctly. It is your responsibility to know your limit, communicate it when appropriate, and take action to honor it.
This is where many people get caught in the drama triangle. They expect other people to intuit, respect, or enforce boundaries that they themselves have not fully claimed. Then, when the other person does not do what they hoped, they feel victimized.
Clear boundaries move the dynamic out of helplessness. You are no longer waiting for someone else to save you from your discomfort. You become the person who can say yes, no, this works, this does not work, I can do that, I cannot do that, thank you, no thank you.
That is power.
Parent and Child Power Dynamics
Leila offers a clear example from parenting and step-parenting.
Sometimes a parent or step-parent may feel as though a child has “too much power.” The child seems to be running the show, getting what they want, being prioritized, or bossing the adults around. This can create resentment, especially when the adult unconsciously experiences themselves as the child’s sub.
But in reality, the adult is still the one with far more power: physically, legally, financially, emotionally, and practically. The adult is the Dom in that relationship, even when the adult is serving the child’s needs.
This reframing can change everything. Caring for a child does not mean the child is dominating you. A good Dom takes care of the sub. A parent can serve, support, protect, feed, hold, and respond to a child without becoming the child’s victim.
When the adult remembers their own authority, the whole dynamic can become calmer and more loving.
Why Feeling Like a Child’s Servant Feels So Bad
The parent-child example is useful because it shows how painful an inverted power dynamic can feel.
If a parent unconsciously imagines, “This child is bullying me and I am helpless before their demands,” resentment is almost inevitable. The parent may become angry, reactive, withholding, or punitive because they are no longer consciously occupying their adult authority.
But if the parent remembers, “I am the one in charge here. I love this child. I am responsible for their care. I can say yes or no. I can listen. I can change my mind. I can hold my boundary,” then the child’s needs become much less threatening.
The facts may not change immediately. The child may still ask for things. They may still push. They may still be immature because they are a child. But the adult’s inner position changes, and that can transform the relationship.
Bosses, Employees, and Reversed Power
Workplace dynamics can be more complicated because hierarchy and personality do not always align.
A boss may formally hold power, but act needy, anxious, micromanaging, or difficult to please. The employee may feel trapped, resentful, and victimized by someone who has authority but behaves like a demanding sub.
Leila suggests a surprising reframe: instead of experiencing yourself as the put-upon sub of a bratty boss, try imagining yourself as the caring Dom of someone who has a lot of needs.
This does not mean saying inappropriate things out loud or denying the formal hierarchy. It means changing your internal posture. You may still do the work, respond to requests, revise the document, or meet the expectation, but you are no longer collapsing into helpless resentment.
You are choosing to care for the dynamic from a more empowered place.
The Power of Willing Participation
A key phrase in this episode is “playing the role with willingness.”
Power dynamics become much less painful when we consciously acknowledge them and choose how to participate. If you are in a sub role, can you inhabit it with dignity, receptivity, discernment, and the ability to say no? If you are in a Dom role, can you inhabit it with responsibility, clarity, care, and good boundaries?
Much of the suffering comes from unconscious participation. We are already playing the role, but we are ashamed of it, resisting it, misunderstanding it, or pretending the dynamic is not there.
Willingness does not mean staying in a harmful situation. Sometimes consciously recognizing the dynamic shows you that you need to leave. But until you can see the dynamic clearly, you may not know whether it needs to be healed, renegotiated, or exited.
Appreciation Makes the Dynamic Easier
Lucy points out that appreciation can make both roles easier.
When someone is in a sub role, being willing to be pleased can soften a lot of unnecessary friction. Instead of nitpicking, resisting, or making the other person work endlessly for approval, the sub can receive and appreciate what is being offered.
When someone is in a Dom role, appreciation also matters. A good Dom appreciates the trust, vulnerability, receptivity, and participation of the sub.
This applies far beyond kink. In families, businesses, friendships, and marriages, genuine appreciation reduces resentment. It helps people feel that their effort, care, desire, leadership, or receptivity is being recognized.
Appreciation is not a replacement for boundaries. It is part of what makes boundaries easier to hold without bitterness.
Agreements Make Relationships Easier
Lucy connects kink dynamics to the importance of explicit agreements.
In kink, agreements, boundaries, safe words, expectations, and consent are essential because people may be entering intense territory. But the same principle applies to many ordinary relationships.
Friendships, marriages, business partnerships, coaching relationships, collaborations, and family dynamics are often full of unspoken agreements. Each person has assumptions about what the relationship means, what is owed, what is allowed, what should happen, and what the other person should understand without being told.
Those unspoken agreements create conflict when they do not match.
Clear communication can feel formal, but it often creates more ease. When people know what is allowed, expected, desired, and off-limits, they do not have to waste as much energy guessing.
The New Topping Book and The New Bottoming Book
Lucy and Leila recommend The New Topping Book and The New Bottoming Book by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy for people who want to understand Dom/sub dynamics more deeply.
Although these books are written for a kink context, Lucy and Leila point out that the archetypal dynamics are useful outside the bedroom. The books offer examples of healthy and unhealthy expressions of topping and bottoming, consent, boundaries, communication, and conscious participation in power exchange.
You do not have to be in the kink world to learn from those frameworks. The point is not to eroticize every relationship. The point is to notice that power, consent, care, leadership, surrender, and receptivity are already part of life.
Existential Kink and Being Reality’s Sub
Lucy connects this conversation back to Existential Kink by naming a core spiritual metaphor: we are reality’s sub.
Life brings us scenes. Some are pleasurable. Some are painful. Some are humiliating, boring, frustrating, beautiful, erotic, or absurd. Existential Kink asks whether we can relate to reality as a trustworthy Dom rather than constantly fighting the scene.
This does not mean becoming passive. It means changing our inner posture toward what is already happening.
Can we trust reality enough to feel the sensation? Can we become the grateful, turned-on, willing sub of life? Can we stop fighting the scene long enough to discover the hidden pleasure, power, humor, and aliveness inside it?
That is the spiritual kink at the heart of the practice.
Healing Our Relationship With Power
Leila closes with a powerful reflection on why healing our relationship with power matters.
Many people dislike the word power. They associate it with violence, domination, corruption, hierarchy, and abuse. That makes sense, because a lot of power has been used badly.
But if people who care about reciprocity, justice, nourishment, and collective flourishing reject power entirely, then power will remain in the hands of people willing to abuse it.
Healing our relationship with power means becoming willing to have it, share it, feel it, use it responsibly, and enjoy it without turning into bullies. It means taking up our share of power and supporting others in taking up theirs.
This is not only personal. It is spiritual, relational, and political.
Power and Reciprocity
Lucy brings in the concept of reciprocity.
Human beings naturally track giving and taking. We notice who contributes, who cheats, who extracts, who gives back, and who takes more than their share. On a deep level, many people are angry at existing power structures because those structures do not feel reciprocal.
The people with the most power often do not give back in proportion to what they take. They may not be “cheating” according to the rules they helped create, but on a more ancient human level, the imbalance is obvious.
This is why the image of the good Dom matters socially. A good Dom does not simply extract from the people under their care. A good Dom protects, enriches, serves, leads, and takes responsibility.
The servant king is a good Dom.
The Real Invitation of This Episode
The invitation of this episode is not to decide whether you are “really” a Dom or “really” a sub.
You are both.
You will occupy different roles in different relationships, and sometimes those roles will shift from moment to moment. You may lead in one context and receive in another. You may care for someone here and be cared for there. You may challenge, coach, create, yield, ask, refuse, appreciate, and hold boundaries all in the same day.
The real invitation is consciousness.
Where am I giving away power unconsciously?
Where am I abusing power unconsciously?
Where am I expecting rescue?
Where am I avoiding authority?
Where am I refusing to say no?
Where am I playing a role backward and then resenting everyone involved?
When these questions become available, power stops being only something to fear. It becomes something to practice.
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Lucy Baldwin (00:01.044)
Hey there, welcome to another episode of Penetrate Radio. I am here today with Laila Matthews and we are going to talk about power dynamics. Power dynamics was a big part of the Penetrate program that Laila and I put on because we taught about the power dynamic within the coaching relationship because that was our coach training program. But
Power dynamics are so much more than, you they're so important in every relationship that we have and they are a key piece to understanding our unconscious beliefs, behaviors, just like what is happening in our unconscious world. Because a lot of times, power dynamics that we have are, most of us don't even notice them. You know, we don't even realize what the dynamics are that we're in. And a lot of times,
in relationships, if you look at them from the lens of the power dynamic, you can uncover a lot of where conflict is happening or what is sort of bothering you about a relationship. So yeah, that's what we're going to talk about today.
Laila Matthews (01:13.256)
Yeah, and I love this topic. I love teaching about power dynamics in Penetrate. And I also think it's really relevant to the work that we're doing ongoing in Dominion. In Penetrate, we were teaching people to be coaches. And so we taught on, I'm going say a few things here, and then I think we'll unpack them more. We taught on two different frameworks of power dynamics. So.
One, were having people think about the kink dynamic or the kink polarity of Dom versus Sub. And what people's misconceptions about that are, misuses of Dom-y energy, misuses of Sub-y energy, misunderstandings of those, and also then correct energetically appropriate responsible.
inhabiting of those roles is, I think, worth talking about. And maybe we'll even cover some of that today. And then we also shared about the Cartman's drama triangle, which includes the three points of victim, perpetrator, and rescuer. And while these are not, these are separate schemas for different kinds of power dynamics.
you know, what Lucy was saying is so true that often we can find ourselves in relationship unconsciously participating in these schemas. And our unconscious participation is often what is causing yuckiness and bringing it to consciousness or clarifying, clarifying our misunderstandings about those unconscious schemas can be really, really
dare I say, enlightening.
Lucy Baldwin (03:08.778)
Yeah. Yeah, and I would love to just right off the jump here say that, you know, one of the big features of the drama triangle is that everyone on the drama triangle ends up a victim. so wherever you enter the drama triangle, if you enter as a rescuer, if you enter as a perpetrator, if you enter as a victim, you always become...
the So anytime you engage with those dynamics with people, you end up becoming a victim. and the reason why we sort of like, it's a little bit tricky, because as soon as you start thinking in terms of the drama triangle, it's hard to even like, it's hard to not like get swept up in it. It's a very like sticky thing. But and kind of the idea.
that where we're coming from, let's just say the stance that I have is that for myself at least, I tend to want to avoid becoming a victim. I prefer to be not a victim. I prefer to feel more empowered in my life. And so I tend to want to, as much as I can, avoid the drama triangle. And having said that, it is very hard. is very like we're people, you know, and so we end up...
we end up getting caught, swept up in drama and these roles of wanting to help people and, you know, doing things that people don't like and feeling victimized by people. And it's just, it's sort of inevitable. So I just want to put that out there. Nobody's like perfectly able to avoid the drama triangle, I don't think. And it's also extremely helpful to have an understanding of how it works. And...
and also how it relates to power dynamics too.
Lucy Baldwin (05:05.653)
I could also talk about the misunderstandings in the subdom thing, sort of like at a higher level, but we could also just go from there.
Laila Matthews (05:16.32)
Yeah, I mean, so yeah, in some ways I feel like the Dom sub polarity is a cleaner, more like self like it becomes more self generating. The Cartman drama triangle also has a like he has a healed version. So I think maybe we should touch on that because I think we can talk maybe about, you know, the shadow of
these, I think it's quite easy to see in the Cartman, you know, shadow triangle of the victim perpetrator rescuer. The inversion of that is the creator, the coach and the challenger. And so the victim becomes the creator, the prosecutor becomes the challenger and the rescuer becomes the coach. And that's like a functional dynamic of interpersonal relationship that's sort of
generative upward spiral whereas I think as you so you know clearly pointed out the victim persecutor rescuer triangle is a downward spiral towards victimhood and everyone feeling victimized and everyone feeling like you know hurt and there is someone to blame so yeah those are
the shadow and the healed version. Do we want to talk about some of the sort of shadowy ways that doming and subbing shows up? Some of the healed versions? Well, first of all, I think it's very obvious that immature dom energy or the misconception of the dom energy is that a dom is synonymous with a bully. So that the idea is that the dom is somebody who just pushes other people around, tells other people what to do.
has utter disregard for others. And then, you know, the sub then is seen as the victim of the bully. and maybe in kink, and obviously in the kink space, like we're getting off on that. People are consenting to that. But, and, and I think the consent piece is what changes things, but sometimes there isn't good consent. Sometimes it is sloppy. Sometimes people are
Laila Matthews (07:38.859)
you know, seeking their own pleasure at the expense of others, which is bad kink, right? That's bad playing. That's
Maybe that's the whole problem with the world is that some people are enjoying at other people's expense. And if we could learn to stop doing that, then we could all have fun playing together. But anyway, so then the sub is just the victim of the bully. And this leads to a very disempowered thing. And you can see that this is basically clearly a persecutor and a victim. And then somebody's got to rescue that situation or bad things are going to be done. Anyway, the...
Lucy Baldwin (07:53.909)
Thanks.
Laila Matthews (08:18.537)
more healed understanding of Dom sub dynamics is that there is like the one who does and the one who receives or the one on whose behalf it is done. And when the Dom is the person who has more agency, more leadership, more, I don't know if I want to say vision, but just yeah, like follow through or active energy to make it happen.
If they are in a positive and self-nourishing relationship with the sub, then the things that the Dom is doing are for the enrichment, the pleasure of, the support of, the love of, the care of, the titillation of, whatever it is, of the sub. And the sub's job is to humbly receive that.
as much as possible because it was their idea and it is their will actually being done for them by the Dom. And good Doms are generally, you know, is an archetype that takes pleasure in seeing the pleasure of another or takes gets sensation from the sensation of another, whereas the sub is the one who's just raw experiencing sensation.
Laila Matthews (09:45.997)
great.
Lucy Baldwin (09:46.153)
Yes, exactly. Exactly. And the thing is that what I think is really profound for a lot of people is when you start to look at each and every one of your relationships and realize that these dom sub dynamics happen in every single interaction that you have. There is some dom sub relationship occurring. There is some, like the power dynamics are present whether you want to acknowledge them or notice them or not.
And a lot of times when we're struggling in relationships or when we're like having conflict, is, there is like an undercurrent of sort of, there can be like disagreement that is usually unconscious about like who's in the dom versus sub role or how those roles are being played out. And also this idea
Laila Matthews (10:37.185)
or what does it mean and how do we view people who are in those roles?
Lucy Baldwin (10:41.566)
Well, yes, that's a big part of it too. Like, do we exactly? And then also the idea of like consent. Like we might find ourselves in sub, you know, have in sub dynamics that we didn't, that we don't feel like we consented to. And then this sort of brings us over to the drama triangle because how do we, how do we resolve that? I just want to give like a quick answer here is, you know, without going into victimhood.
is with clear communication and good boundaries, right? And that's how you, that's a big part of how you move from that drama triangle to the, I don't know what the, what's the other drama, the triangle called?
Lucy Baldwin (11:24.106)
the empowerment triangle. So, but there's also a big piece of like, even being able to sort of see what is going on. Like once you start to notice the victim triangle, like, and the power dynamics, you can see how we kind of, often will, yeah, like we think we need to save somebody, or, you know, we think that this person did something that was bad and wrong to us. And the empowered sort of response to that,
is to communicate clearly, to set boundaries. And this is a big thing that Laila and I have talked about in our other programs that hasn't come up in a while, but boundaries are something that we are in charge of ourselves. It's not something that you can demand other people to respect your boundaries. You are responsible for holding your boundaries. And if you don't understand that, you will always get stuck on the drama triangle.
because you'll be expecting other people to rescue you. You'll be expecting other people to take care of you and to dom you without you communicating and holding your own position.
Laila Matthews (12:35.062)
Well, and you'll be seeing other people as persecuting you and harming you and, you know, being wrong to you. And then the world is full of only people who can help you or hurt you. And you yourself can't really do anything. That's it. That ends up in a very disempowered place. One of the ways that I like, I feel like I want to give a
more concrete example of how I see these power dynamics like showing up in our unconscious and therefore like playing out as unrest or dysfunction in our relationships. So like one place that I see this playing out really clearly and I think this is a pretty common dynamic is between like children and step parents or children and parents where like
the dynamic between usually the biological parent and the kid is pretty stable. And then a step-parent often comes in and sees the child taking more power than that step-parent is comfortable with. I see this a lot with step-dads and boys. You know what I'm talking about, It's like a
Lucy Baldwin (13:57.451)
Yeah, I have, I have, we have, my husband, have step, I mean, I have, yes, I definitely.
Laila Matthews (14:01.376)
Children. You know what I'm talking about, right? Where like, there's a parent who feels like a child has too much power. And the other parent is like, I don't know what you're talking about. This is just my, this is just a kid. Right? Like this is a kid. So what are you talking about? And this is not to say that there are not unhealthy dynamics and unhealthy behaviors and things that are out of control. But sometimes it's really just a matter of perception. And I really think that what is going on there is like,
any number of things, but I'm going to list some things that I would imagine might be going on in the unconscious of people who are struggling in that situation. So one might be imagining that the kid is the dom, because the kid is always getting what they want, or the kid's needs are being prioritized, or there's focus on doing for the child. And so then it's like, this kid is controlling the situation.
In truth, that is a child who has a need and whatever parent is doing for the child is actually the dom. You're not subbing to your bratty child. You are as the parent always the dom. So there's I think sometimes in that dynamic there's like a perception of like I'm the sub now to this child who is doming me.
I think that's uncomfortable because I think it's really an inversion of truth where adults are, think, just factually, legally, financially, physically, emotionally, almost in every way more powerful than a child.
Lucy Baldwin (15:37.878)
Right, and this is just an illustration of the fact that the Dom can definitely, like, give, like, a good Dom, like, gives gifts and takes care of their sub and, cares about their well-being. So that is part of the role of a, you know, a good Dom, a nice Dom. Yeah.
Laila Matthews (15:54.997)
Yes, serving, serving, right. You are not right. But like it feels yucky when you imagine that your kid is bossing you around and you are their servant. That feels yucky. That would clearly make anyone miserable. I would hate to feel like I was the slave to a child.
Lucy Baldwin (16:14.152)
Right. And that's just a... And if that was how it was going, that would be a dysfunctional Dom sub relationship. Like if the kid was just like bossing the adult around. But as you said, and I think this is a good example too, because like the adult is always the Dom, because the adult has ultimate power over the child. just, yeah. The ability to... Yeah.
Laila Matthews (16:33.962)
Like I said, physically, experientially, financially, legally, in every way, the adult clearly has more power. Which is, think, why I like this example, because in other situations, it can be a little bit more muddy. And so we have to kind of decide for ourselves where we want to land in a power dynamic. And it can be more fluid. And there isn't really a right answer. But I think with parents and kids, and I think that's also why that
inverted dynamic where we start imagining that there is a child who's running the show and they are the dom and they are the bully and they are in control and we are the parents who are just and you know we're helpless to their controlling demeanor that feels so bad it's so bad so i hope that maybe even if you can't relate to this particular dynamic you can relate to the this like aha moment of like
If I'm playing this dynamic backwards, it feels real yucky and all kinds of crazy stuff can happen. And if I can actually just switch back into like resting, you know, like I see this happen for myself. Like I get frustrated when I know that I'm a worse mom when I imagine that my kids are like bullying me and pushing me around and that I have to do whatever they say.
That really makes me resentful and angry. But if I can rest back in like, hey, well, I'm actually really the one in charge here. And it's actually my job to care for those who are less able than me. And I love them. And I want them to have a nice time. And also, I want to maintain my own boundaries. I don't want to do things that violate myself. I'm certainly not going to do that. I'm in charge. So none of that's going to happen. And then I rest in that, like, you know, when my kid asks me something, I can say yes or no.
And you know what? I'm so empowered in my dom role with my kids that I can say no to them and then they can say something to me that makes me go, huh, you know what? Actually, let's just go for it. And I don't feel like they're bossing me around. Do you know what I mean? Like if I just can more consciously feel myself as the one that is calling the shots and making these choices and has the reins.
Laila Matthews (18:49.194)
then suddenly I'm just dealing with children who obviously I need to care for them and obviously they don't know what's going on and obviously they're gonna overstep and obviously I'm not gonna do that.
Lucy Baldwin (18:58.004)
Well, and I also think, you know, like as a parent, it's like if my kid can convince me to change my mind about something, then I want to empower them and teach them to like be persuasive. So I'm going to enable that. But even in my business, it's like sometimes people will ask me for things. And I'm just like, you know, I'm so titillated that you're just like asking me so directly for this thing that I'm just going to give it to you. And it's not out of a place like it's not the child dynamic. I'm not like, I'm proud of you. Like they're not my child. But I am just kind of like
Okay, like you just asked for what you wanted and now I want to give it to you.
Laila Matthews (19:33.398)
Right. And you don't need to feel like that person is making a demand on you. Like, I can certainly imagine that it's possible to have people emailing you in your business asking you for stuff to turn really sour and have you feel like these people just think they can take whatever they want from me and they're just, you know, so greedy and all they they don't even know my struggles and they don't know what I need. Like, you could get into that mind state of disempowerment and letting yourself feel
Lucy Baldwin (20:03.253)
Right. And I think that that is the exact kind of mindset that we were talking about before that can happen if you are not capable, if you don't realize your own power and also authority and also sort of like, I don't know the word, like that you are the one that has to hold your own boundaries because then you think that you have to give everything that people ask you for.
Laila Matthews (20:03.399)
at the behest of.
Laila Matthews (20:22.432)
Right.
Lucy Baldwin (20:29.031)
only when you understand that you have the authority to say no to people and that you know that you can do that with loving kindness, which does require you to be on the more empowered triangle, right? Like you understand that like saying no is not being a perpetrator. It's actually just holding your boundaries. It's actually being honest. It's actually kind. And when you understand that you can even deliver it with more kindness because you're doing it from a genuine place of love, thanks, you know, I appreciate your request, but...
that doesn't work for me. Yeah, exactly. And so then you don't feel victimized by people asking for things.
Laila Matthews (20:59.082)
No thanks.
Laila Matthews (21:05.155)
And then you don't accidentally become a perpetrator because you don't accidentally lash out and be like, no, and I can't believe that you would even consider asking me. You know, like you don't shame someone else for their behavior. You're just like, OK, interaction, not compatible. Moving on, you know, it's just like a molecular situation that doesn't work. Yeah.
Totally. I love that. And you know, as you were talking about the saying no thing, it really occurred to me that it's important to mention that in the like Dom sub dynamic, everyone to play that game in a fun way, everyone has to be able to say no. Everybody top to bottom has to be able to say no. And I think that part of the shadow power dynamics is when the Dom thinks that they are somebody
Lucy Baldwin (21:42.295)
Mm-hmm.
Laila Matthews (21:56.021)
who nobody can say no to.
Laila Matthews (22:01.643)
Also, if a sub thinks that nobody can say no to them.
Lucy Baldwin (22:06.537)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Laila Matthews (22:09.961)
then both of those are dysfunctional. So everybody has to be able to say no for maximum health. Anyway, are there any other, like, do we want to give any other examples? I just want to give, like, real life examples of, like, the shadowy dynamics that might be going on.
Lucy Baldwin (22:17.847)
Sorry, you were talking about, yeah, well you were talking.
Lucy Baldwin (22:25.259)
I know, I feel like I interrupt, you were like in a good one and I interrupted it and.
Laila Matthews (22:29.949)
talking about the step parent kind of coming in and like seeing a kid who's like maybe a little big for their britches and just interpreting them as like overstepping when I think oftentimes, I mean I think there's know parenting differences and cultural differences from family to family and that also contributes but I think a lot of what those cultural norms of parent-children dynamics are is about
how are the power dynamics between parents and children expressed?
Lucy Baldwin (23:01.739)
Yeah. And it is a fascinating, know, just like a little example of this from my own life. You know, my mom was very strict and intense and scary. And like, I did what my mom said and I listened to my mom. And I was like, I mean, I was pretty well behaved for both my parents and also kind of sneaky. But like my mom, I respected her. And it's not to say that I didn't respect my dad.
But the few times that my dad ever yelled at me, I would just like laugh at him. Like I just laugh and just be like, ha ha, you're like so funny when you're mad, you know? And that's like just how they're holding that power dynamic. And you know, I'm obviously a child, a sub in both of those relationships and yet behaving completely differently. And this is where like these dynamics, there is no like one way that any of this needs to look.
And it is very fluid where sometimes it can change from interaction to interaction, especially with people who are sort of closer to us, you know, like with our boss, it's not really going to shift, right? Usually. And if there is a shift and we try to like dom our boss, that could be really bad or, yeah, I don't know what that would, you know, that could have like consequences potentially. They could be really good. They could be not good.
But sometimes like forcing sort of like a false dynamic can actually like rupture a relationship in a major way and that's something Yeah I'm trying to think of a good example of that But I do think that the boss example is a good one
Laila Matthews (24:50.207)
Yeah, I mean, I can well imagine that, you know, certainly within the realm of the hierarchy of a business, and there's also going to be differences in, the business culture from one company to the next. But generally speaking, you're like, your boss is in charge. And again, can be a good boss or a bad boss, a boss who extracts from those underneath them or a boss that protects and uplifts and, you know, mentors and encourages.
Whatever. In any case, that dynamic is there. But I can well imagine a scenario where you like, go out for drinks or go to, you know, meet each other in a social setting. And right, it could go one way or the other if suddenly you find yourself in a position where like... I don't know, you're the referee of the rec team volleyball game or you're at pub quiz and you seem to know lot more about this than your boss does.
And managing that power dynamic, depending upon how your boss is, how healthy they are, how healthy you are, managing all of that conflict or, what am going to say, interference patterns in like, this is my boss and this is me, but now we're in a different context. And how am I going to respond? And how are they going to respond? And how is that going to rea- you know, that I can well imagine that that's rife for conflict or a lot of illumination.
And, you know, skillfully navigating it and being aware of what's going on, think is certainly helpful, you know? So paying attention to how your boss occupies the powerful role could help you to, you know, know how they might react to feeling differently, feeling in a different role than that. You know what mean?
Lucy Baldwin (26:38.743)
Mm-hmm.
Laila Matthews (26:45.94)
personally think one of the most unsuspecting power moves in power dynamics is when instead of trying to flip the power dynamic, you know, like in a situation where you maybe feel like somebody is more powerful than you or bullying you or you know, whatever, just consciously taking on this, think is part of existential kink consciously accepting
the role that you're in, in that dynamic, but with like the conscious choice to play it well instead of reject it or be ashamed of it or fight against it in, you you know what I'm saying?
Lucy Baldwin (27:38.048)
Yeah, because a lot of, and you kind of referenced this just briefly earlier, like a lot of times what can come up, especially when we start to actually look at these things is if we have sort of, if we have beliefs or ideas about, you know, Dom's being bad, like authority bad, then we can start to, you know, we can feel really uncomfortable having authority. We can feel really uncomfortable in Dom roles and...
And if we're not accepting those roles and we're not choosing them and we're not playing them consciously, we can end up in those sort of like, I don't know, murky dynamics where we're not having good boundaries and we're not making empowered decisions. in a way that's actually shitty for whoever the sub is in that dynamic too, because it puts them...
in an uncomfortable position of having to like navigate around our boundaries. it just like it really challenges relationships when we have beliefs that we don't or, you know, things that make us feel like we don't want to be in that role or we're not comfortable in that role. And the truth is that we are all doms in some situations and we're all subs in some situations. There is no like you just you have so many different relationships with so many different people in your life.
Even if you're a hermit, like I'm pretty much a hermit and I still I mean I have five kids So there's like I have five little subs right there But then I also have my parents and that's interesting because my parents, know I was their sub and I feel like it has things have shifted as I've gotten older definitely and I have a brother and I have friends I have Laila I have my husband and you know partnerships and marriages have interesting power dynamics
And actually like playing into those roles and playing with those in your primary partnership can be really helpful if there is conflict around, like if there is some like unconscious like stuff coming up, you know, with my husband and I, we both dom and sub each other all the time, but it's really like a back and forth. And some marriages might have like more stable roles, you know, and
Lucy Baldwin (29:59.513)
There's nothing wrong with that. There's no like right way to do it And so whatever sort of position that you've sort of fallen into in these relationships Yeah, going back to what Laila says it's really helpful to just like own that and there's actually yeah, and and like play that role with just sort of like I don't know. I don't know what the word is
Laila Matthews (30:28.829)
willingness?
Lucy Baldwin (30:29.876)
Yeah, willingness, that's the exact word. Play that role with willingness.
Laila Matthews (30:32.584)
Yeah, yeah, and I think, you know, it helps to be clear about what the like more empowered versions are. So like, you know, if you are already the sub, then well, and what am I trying to say here? Sometimes I think the dom sub dynamic gets a little confusing because when we really understand the healthy cycle of it,
Lucy Baldwin (31:00.888)
I'd to.
Laila Matthews (31:01.992)
then who's in charge is really not actually clear at all. But everyone's being taken care of and everyone's being served. It's enriching. It's an enriching spiral.
Shoot, I'm trying to get back on what I was trying to say here. The empowerment, right, so it's hard, sometimes it's hard to even choose which version you should play because you might be confused about who's the dom and who's a sub in a dynamic because you might be playing them in a of crooked backwards way already. But what I'm really trying to get at is
Playing with gusto and playing with empowerment and like choosing to acknowledge the fact of a power dynamic and not struggle against it is the best way to either heal it and settle it and calm it or flip it into a way that actually then feels more healed and soothed and calmed because it's more appropriate.
So to me, I just really noticed that, like for example, I've coached people in settings where like their boss is kind of needy and demanding and micromanage-y and anxious and like uppity, okay? And that's their boss. So that person is, you know, higher in the hierarchy of their business. However, they're actually acting
rather, in my opinion, like a sub, like someone who has a lot of needs and wants those needs to be taken care of by someone else. So that to me, that's subby behavior. And there's nothing wrong with that. I personally love to have my needs taken care of by other people when I'm open to it, when I can allow myself. Then yes, it's wonderful. I love it. OK, so it's annoying to have a boss like that.
Laila Matthews (33:15.517)
especially when you feel like that person is in charge of you and has power over your career and your money and your life and a lot of your time. And so it can be frustrating to just be like, this, I have to do whatever this person says and they're my boss. One way I have dealt with that for people or suggested that people deal with that is more accurate way to say it is to take on the idea that actually your boss is a sweet little baby.
who has a lot of needs. They're actually a little sensitive squish-squish who just really needs your help. And if you, in your own mind, can see that like, okay, I, this poor person, like I can hear the like, but they should be, but they are, but they're supposed to be better because they're like, okay, yeah, great. That's the kind of thinking that has been making you miserable.
try taking on the idea that like, I really need to take care of this little guy. Just in your own mind and heart. And like my job is to be like, okay, you need it in a different font. Okay, you need a different, you know, page here. Okay, you want it like this now. All right, got it, sweetie. I mean, don't say that out loud, then you'll get in trouble. But just like taking on the like caring of that person.
Lucy Baldwin (34:13.794)
Thank
Laila Matthews (34:38.377)
can really make those dynamics feel a lot less yucky. Because it just, I don't know, it just does. For me, I've seen it work for a lot of people of just like, just saying willingly, I'm in this dynamic with this person, I do need to take care of them, I do need to do what they say, okay, but instead of feeling put upon, I'm just gonna try and, you know, care for this person and give them what they're asking for like a good Dom.
And so instead of feeling like the put-upon sub of a nasty bratty dom bully, I'm going to be the caring, caring dom of this little, you know, needy person, of this needy person who needs me. And that's my job. That's what I'm getting paid to do. So.
I get a paycheck for that, you know, and that's and I just see that like it doesn't have to remain that way. I often see that these dynamics then like heal and greater understanding of what's going on happens and like more clarity and or people are like, wow, I actually really hate that. And it makes me sick. And I need to quit this job because I cannot deal with this person at all. No way of dealing with them is OK for me. In some way, it spirals on and it evolves. But that can be a really good like first
Lucy Baldwin (35:25.47)
Yeah.
Laila Matthews (35:55.246)
you know, like just adjustment to like get things moving again is re-examining your participation, your conscious participation in a power dynamic.
Lucy Baldwin (36:07.06)
Yeah, and I love this because it also illustrates there is this kind of way that they kind of like fold into each other because the Dom is taking care of the sub, who's taking care of the Dom, who's taking care of the sub, and this is extremely oversimplified. But you can see from this example how that kind of works. so, you know, you can... Some people enjoy being like a sort of like difficult sub.
Right? Like some people, they want to like talk back and like be kind of like bratty and just like resist being told what to do.
Laila Matthews (36:46.739)
Or they wanna be difficult to please. I think that's difficult to please.
Lucy Baldwin (36:48.714)
Yeah, or they want to be difficult. Yeah, yeah, that's a big one. And those are sort of like ways that we can play the sub role that makes it, let's say, more difficult for the Dom. And sometimes it's fun to like play that role like that. And if you want to like make the relationship easier, then you can be more like...
you know, a willing participant be more willing to be pleased. Like, because there's also this like nitpicky thing that people do with each other where we like we and this can happen on both sides. And so it's like holding appreciation first is a big thing, you know, and that is part of this like being pleased thing is like just having.
expressing appreciation and genuinely feeling appreciation and finding things to be appreciative of. Really in both roles can make each role so much easier, but it's hard to do that if you're not even recognizing that those roles are even happening. So that is sort of the first step is like notice as you go through your life, notice these roles. Notice like how you are engaging in these dynamics with people and then
Laila Matthews (38:11.271)
Yeah, I wanted to say, I just wanted to say that if you're really interested in this topic and you want to go deep, we really recommend the new topping book and the new bottoming book. I forget the author of those books. Lucy's going to look it up. There's multiple authors. We really liked the new topping and the new, the new topping and the new bottoming book because they're very clear on
Lucy Baldwin (38:25.954)
There's multiple authors and hold on.
Laila Matthews (38:37.959)
the like healthy versions and unhealthy versions. And even though it is talking in a kink setting where there's, you know, more like agreed upon scene and agreed upon activities, the books are not like too lurid to read. And you can definitely take real life applications from those books on how these dynamics work out, even if you're not in, you know, strictly
consenting laid out scenes in a kink world.
Lucy Baldwin (39:12.854)
Yeah, so it's the Dawsey Eaton and Janet Hardy. And yeah, I agree. It's really helpful to
Yeah, they're specifically talking about that world, but kink is happening all the time. And part of the whole pretense for like existential kink is that we sort of are the subs of reality itself. Like we are in a relationship with existence where we are the sub and we can choose in our lives to be in a like appreciative
grateful sub-stance with reality, or we can constantly be fighting and in conflict and in friction with reality. And the path of existential kink is to treat our life like a kinky ass game with our... The Dom, where we trust the Dom. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Laila Matthews (40:11.868)
Where we trust the sub. I'm sorry, yeah, where we trust the dom. Where we trust the dom, yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (40:19.697)
and then allow ourselves to get off on all of these kinky-ass scenes that we're doing. So, yeah, like these books are really good because they talk about it and you can map all of this onto everyday life and you can even map it onto, I guess what we're talking about is a spiritual level of like, this is what existence is. And so we're realities sub. How can we like make the best out of being the most like
just turned on excited, grateful sub ever.
Laila Matthews (40:56.968)
Exactly.
Lucy Baldwin (40:57.859)
Cause that feels good. That feels good.
Laila Matthews (40:59.558)
Yes, that does feel good. I know I'm thinking about it right now. Yeah, and the reason I mentioned those books as you were talking is because if you really feel in listening to this, you know, brief, fun conversation, intro conversation, if you are getting the sense that like, wow, these power dynamics are playing out in my life and I am not being in full conscious participation and I'm, you know, I got stuff going on and you really want to
be able to look at your own participation in it and really get clear on how exactly and what exactly am I doing, reading those books can be very helpful to just give good examples of.
Lucy Baldwin (41:38.252)
Yeah.
Laila Matthews (41:39.292)
what it looks like. Those archetypes. Basically give examples of the archetypes.
Lucy Baldwin (41:42.796)
Yeah, and also in the books they talk about kind of like setting rules and setting boundaries and having kind of like, you know, there's like the classic safe word and things like that. But I think that, again, like mapping this on to real world relationships, most of our relationships, we have unspoken agreements with people that we're in relationship with. And, you know, something that I learned a lot about when I was learning about like polyamory is like you can come up with
whatever agreements you want in your relationships. And it can actually be incredibly healthy to like verbally establish, certainly in certain relationships, not in every, it would be weird to do it in every relationship, but particularly in like primary partnerships and business relationships and things like that, it's actually really good. It's actually really helpful to have like written agreements and contracts and established boundaries and expectations and...
You know, this is something that they talk about a lot in these books. And I think it's a really important thing in kink because you're going to be going into territories where you need to have understandings. You need to kind of know like what is a no for somebody and what is a yes. And when is it too much for them? You need to be able to communicate all of that in a really effective way. And everybody kind of needs to be on the same page about what the expectations are and what the nature of the relationship is.
But that applies so much outside of the bedroom. I think that we often also, we get into kind of unconscious and unspoken agreements with ourselves about how we're gonna behave. And we do that all the time about how things should be and how they ought to be. And this is where we get into conflict because we can be in relationships where we think that...
the other person should do this, this and this because that's my beliefs about what a boss should do. That's my beliefs about how a friend needs to show up for me. But they might not necessarily have those beliefs. So sometimes even just having the conversation, even if it is more casual, just like, what are your expectations around, you know, what friendship looks like or what are your expectations for me in this kind of relationship that we're in can really help, like, everybody get in alignment and
Lucy Baldwin (44:01.454)
be able to feel good. Like I think a lot of times we want to, we want to like not be so like formal. We want to be more like cool and chill and casual and boundaries, bad, scary, mean. But actually having those things makes it so much easier to be able to, for everybody to like know what's allowed to have like set expectations. It actually makes it
way easier because how many times, mean, I could really speak for myself. Have I like, you know, it's like, I don't want to impose, but I want to kind of talk about this thing, but I don't. And it's like all this sort of like time wasted where if I just had solid agreements, I wouldn't have to like overthink about how I'm going to interact with people. I think that's actually why I'm such a hermit. And maybe you can relate to this, dear listener. I think Laila probably not as much, but like I think I'm such a hermit because I
It is so much effort for me to interact with people because I am often so worried about like how I'm appearing, how if I'm imposing on them, how, you know, did I say something stupid? Are they offended by that thing that I said that I'm now just like replaying in my mind and I'm so embarrassed by? It's just like we drive ourselves crazy. And this is where like I've just learned like just honest, open, vulnerable communication as much as you possibly can with anybody that you can.
and then like really solid agreements.
That's my TED talk on that, sorry.
Laila Matthews (45:35.912)
Amazing, Lucy.
Laila Matthews (45:40.155)
Well... what? Well, I was laughing. I was like, it's so funny that Lucy said that I can't relate to whether I worry about people judging me or imposing on me. I mean, I do sometimes, but honestly, I think less than most people. I do... I let people, I honestly let people be themselves. I do not try and take care of people when I wouldn't need to be taken care of in the same situation. You know, I don't know. I don't...
Lucy Baldwin (45:40.211)
Laila, you're like, I can't relate to any of that because...
Lucy Baldwin (45:53.581)
I think like, yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (46:06.105)
Well, yeah, and I really like, I feel like I've learned so much from you in that regard. And I think this is part of, like your presence can be so healing for people because you demonstrate in a really beautiful way, like, and maybe you're not like perfect in this, but I just, I really like, obviously we've been friends for a really long time and I just see how you're really yourself and you just hold yourself and you're not like, I don't see you like obsessing about like, oh my God, is that person offended by that thing that I said?
Laila Matthews (46:15.944)
you
Lucy Baldwin (46:35.929)
And it's so healthy. Like it's just so healthy. But I know that a lot of people do do that. And I don't do it nearly as much. Literally since being friends with you, feel like I've like I've like like I've healed a lot. And this is why I say like being around you is kind of like permission, because there is this sort of like enlightened factor of just like, yeah, like being present with yourself.
Laila Matthews (47:01.576)
Well, I wanted to say for people who are considering joining Dominion that this is a really important topic to me. when we're in our, you know, calls in there, I'm happy to talk to people about it because, you know, in my past, I have seen people don't like the word power. People don't. People seem to not like power. Power has a really bad rap.
power is associated with a lot of violence and, you know, bad shit. And that's understandable because a lot of the people who have been using power have been using it in a mean bully-like way. But I think it's actually deeply important to me on like a spiritual and political and just like human level that we heal our relationship with power because if we hate power,
then the people who love power and are willing to abuse it will always have it. And the only way to get power away from the people who use it in a mean and bullying way is to love power so much that we don't want it to be abused in the hands of bullies. And we need to really feel comfortable being empowered and we need to take up our share of power.
and feel very comfortable being around other people who are taking up their share of power and that we all are just kind of rising together in a field of power where we're all participating, we're all contributing, we're all challenging, we're all coaching, we're all creating new stuff and we are flowing together because we all know that we all have the right to exist and to create and to challenge and to have boundaries and we all
deserve to be here and we all deserve to feel empowered. And so, yeah, this is a really important topic to me and I would just love to see more people feeling really good about participating in power dynamics. Yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (49:11.511)
Yeah, I totally, I love this and I totally agree. I was actually explaining the concept of reciprocity to my 12 year old last night. And I was just like explaining how, you know, there's people who like cheat, right? They like cheat the system. They're called cheaters in like game theory and they wanna take without giving back. And then there's...
reciprocity where we're giving back, like we're giving back what we're receiving. And it is like a natural human inclination to want to have reciprocity and also to track other people's reciprocity. that's sort of an innate human talent. And that's why we're so obsessed with like gossip and all this stuff, because we want to identify who the cheaters are and we want to make sure that everybody is reciprocating and giving back to the community. And
The thing is, is that the people who've been in power have not been reciprocating because they don't have to. And they've been able to get away with it and take advantage and really like cheat the system. I mean, they've set up the system so that it's not cheating according to like our laws and our rules, but in terms of reciprocity and like what we understand on a much more foundational level as humans, like just basic giving and taking.
Laila Matthews (50:19.687)
Cheating, right.
Lucy Baldwin (50:31.608)
that's not happening and that's why we're so angry. And so, yeah, I love this because of course it's so important that the people who are in power are like good doms. Like at a societal level, we want the people who are in power to be good doms in the sense of like, yeah, doms, yeah, like doms who are taking care of us, doms who see it as their responsibility to like usher in like,
Laila Matthews (50:49.063)
Yeah, it's like the servant king is a great Dom.
Yes.
Lucy Baldwin (51:00.386)
you know, happiness and health and, you know, abundance for everybody. Yes, exactly. Equality and just all the things that we want. Exactly. And what we've been seeing is like our power structures doing the exact opposite.
Laila Matthews (51:04.175)
equality, yep.
Laila Matthews (51:09.605)
enrichment.
Laila Matthews (51:18.215)
So it's no wonder that we hate power. know, like I hung out with a lot of people who wanted to change the world and really wanted to change the world and they really hated power. It was a really bad word. And I just would really love to see that change.
Lucy Baldwin (51:34.83)
Yeah, yeah, and this is where it's like.
Laila Matthews (51:36.281)
I would love to see more power in everyone.
Lucy Baldwin (51:39.673)
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And power to people who... Yeah. Because the thing is, is that people who seek power are often the kinds of people or people who win power. Like, kind of look, I mean, just not to get like super political here, but I'm always sort of of the stance that like, in order to make it to like...
Laila Matthews (51:41.829)
Not Wes.
Lucy Baldwin (52:03.288)
the White House, I just kind of imagine that you have to step over so many dead bodies to get there. Like you have to be so hungry for power. And that that is kind of not the type of people that we want as our leaders, whoever they are.
And so yeah, like, yeah.
Laila Matthews (52:24.721)
And we're only gonna change that. I mean, to me, there's a malignancy that's happened where like some people are so afraid of power and they really don't want to have anything at all to do with it that then they, you know, are willing to give it to the people who are like, hey, I've got a perfect plan for what I'm gonna do with all this power. that's how they, that's the only place where power comes from is all I'm trying to say. The only power that other people have is the power that they have convinced others to give them.
And whether that's through, you know, clever rhetoric and talking, or whether that's through violence is, you know, that depending on, that depends on the length to which someone is willing to go to get the power. That's how much they want it. But that's the only place it comes from. It's not, doesn't.
Laila Matthews (53:21.083)
I wanna say power is like a finite resource, but by that I mean that it like, exists in people.
and we can move it around so that some people have more and some people have less, but like there is enough for everyone to have the same amount. And we all deserve probably more than we're getting. There's a power inequality in a major big way that we all know about, you know, everybody knows about that. And I really, really do believe that we're going to the only way that we're going to solve that problem and change socially is if spiritually we come to a
greater degree of embrace of power and capacity in our own personal system for power.
Lucy Baldwin (54:14.466)
Yep. Yeah. And of course, we're talking about mostly about interpersonal power here. And we could do a whole other episode on personal power.
Laila Matthews (54:26.609)
mean, they're definitely related. They're definitely related.
Lucy Baldwin (54:28.408)
They are. are. And I think that that is... Are there any last things that we want to talk about here, Laila?
Laila Matthews (54:36.089)
like we've done this topic pretty... I mean I would love to hear questions from anybody who listens to this episode and if there's like a collection of things that need more talking about we love to be inspired by our listeners so feel free to share your questions or any departures for further conversation that you might like to see more conversation on and yeah.
Lucy Baldwin (54:56.954)
Well, thank you so much, Laila. And yeah, we'll leave it at that.
Laila Matthews (55:03.431)
Yeah.
New to Lucy’s work?
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Penetrate Radio explores shadow work, desire, magic, embodiment, self-honesty, radical approval, Existential Kink, and the hidden patterns that shape our lives from underneath.
Frequently Asked Questions
What are power dynamics in shadow work?
Power dynamics are the patterns of authority, agency, need, care, influence, receptivity, and responsibility that shape relationships. Shadow work helps reveal where those patterns are unconscious or distorted.
How does Dom/sub polarity apply outside of kink?
Dom/sub polarity can be used as an archetypal lens for leadership and receptivity, doing and receiving, care and surrender, responsibility and willingness. It appears in parenting, work, partnerships, coaching, and everyday relationships.
What is the Karpman drama triangle?
The Karpman drama triangle is a model of dysfunctional relational roles: victim, persecutor, and rescuer. These roles tend to create blame, helplessness, and cycles where everyone eventually feels victimized.
What is the empowerment triangle?
The empowerment triangle is the healthier alternative to the drama triangle. The victim becomes the creator, the persecutor becomes the challenger, and the rescuer becomes the coach.
Why are boundaries important in power dynamics?
Boundaries allow people to participate in relationships consciously. A boundary is something you hold through communication and action, not simply something you demand another person manage for you.
Next Steps
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DOMINION is Lucy Baldwin’s space for practicing radical approval, shadow integration, desire work, power dynamics, and the deeper transformation at the heart of Shadow Alchemy.
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